Shawn Daysleeper
Cinnamon Raymaker
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Summary:
The “protagonist” is the main character, the one who drives the plot forward. The “antagonist” is the character trying to stop the main character. (These terms come from ancient Greek drama.)
Baddies typically fall into one of two types: the “morally blind” character, who sees breaking the rules as simply a useful advantage, or the one who believes some twisted logic that his actions are right and he is actually the good guy.
Characteristics that we would give to a well-played bad guy:
• intelligence
• perceptiveness
• a personal history that justifies their current behaviours and outlook on life
The personal history should offer solid reasons why the character is the way he is.
• the possibility for change
• powerful enough to be a creditable obstacle to the protagonist
Most people play major villains as resisting change. However, do not automatically assume this is always true. A really powerful being might already have everything he wants, but what unfulfilled desires might he still have?
There is great dramatic material in giving the powerful enemy character the potential for redemption, but only under specific, unlikely circumstances. Thus the tension: will everything come together to change the bad guy?
In the same way, a good character could “go bad” if circumstances conspired exactly wrong.
A villain is “too strong” if the protagonist has no way of successfully opposing him. This is the corollary of a godmodding protagonist. Neither side should be guaranteed victory. Each side should need to work hard.
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...let's talk about the bad guys?
Shawn Daysleeper: ok :)
Lihan Taifun: bad guys!
Belenos whispers: yes please.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Shawn Daysleeper: yay :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: It might help us if we borrow two terms from fiction writing... protagonist and antagonist...
Protagonist comes from Greek and means, basically, "To play the first part." around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to most identify. In the theatre of Ancient Greece, three actors played all of the main dramatic roles in a tragedy; the leading role was played by the protagonist, while the other roles were played by deuteragonist and the tritagonist. :P
Belenos: second and third agonist?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, basically
Lihan Taifun: #2 actor and #3 actor
Shawn Daysleeper: ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: the second and third part. In greek theater....good drama revolved around three character which represented three basic urges or themes.
Shawn Daysleeper: proto in chemistry means "to come before" I think that goes along with this too
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes! the protagonist comes before the other two, and is supposed to be the person we are rooting for, we can identify with.
Shawn Daysleeper: each character is a theme?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Let me explain a little?
Shawn Daysleeper: yes :)
Belenos listens
AelKennyr Rhiano: the deuteragonist was the second most important character. may switch from being with or against the protagonist depending on the deuteragonist's own conflict/plot. So...the deuteragonist carried the plot twists...the obstacles...the challenges.
a tritagonist may act as the instigator or cause of the sufferings of the protagonist. Despite being the least sympathetic character of the drama, he occasions the situations by which pity and sympathy for the protagonist are excited
So...they can represent and did in alot of Greek drama, the challenges, the obstacles, the conflicts, and yes, even the themes of the story.
The deuteragonist would play roles as a confidant or aide to the principal character, and thereby elicit greater character depth from the principal character by having the protagonist explain their feelings and motivations to an on-stage listener
I know...random information from Ael.
Lihan Taifun: :)
Shawn Daysleeper: hehe it is all new to me hehe
Cinnamon Raymaker: makes sense though
AelKennyr Rhiano: But I am hoping it gives you something to mull over when we talk about this protagonist/antagonist interchange.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes it does
Belenos smiles.. so how does your random information translate to our baddies?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ahhhhh, Yes....moving on....So let's talk about how the bad guy is portrayed. Well, you need a bad guy, you need to establish he's bad, and you need an explanation why he's bad.
Cinnamon Raymaker thinks back to the convo between the dragon and the balrog
AelKennyr Rhiano: but now let's remember our Greek friends and ask...is that it? Is that all we need?
Belenos: well no.. you'd need the baddie to act accordingly... to help elicit sympathy for the good guy?
AelKennyr Rhiano: In a great deal of the typical rp we see, there are two main categories of baddies. The first is the one that sees breaking the rules as simply a useful advantage, the 'morally blind' character. The second is the one who believes some twisted logic that his actions are right and he is actually the good guy.
Basically the protagonist and antagonist share this relationship.
Protagonist drives the plot forward.
Antagonist tries to stop him.
AelKennyr Rhiano: In the most basic form, the Protagonist is the Prime Mover of the effort to achieve the Story's Goal. The Antagonist is the Chief Obstacle to that effort. In a sense, Protagonist is the irresistible force and Antagonist is the immovable object.
Belenos: <----makes a good immovable object.. *nods nods nods*
Shawn Daysleeper: hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Why? Why do you?
Belenos whispers: determination and creativity in how to be difficult...:D
AelKennyr Rhiano: Because we will keep coming back to this question...is just being "bad" enough?
Belenos: i think it all comes down to what one's motivation is for being percieved as bad. remember, it's the viewpoint usually that determines good or bad
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Belenos: I was careful when i was developing Suraumo to give him a good reason for being how he was.. in his eyes, he's not bad.. just trying to survive... and he has a low opinion of others..
AelKennyr Rhiano: If we were to "Build-a-villain" right now....what characteristics would you give that character? Let's start with Cinnamon.
Cinnamon Raymaker: hmm I think intelligence would play a factor coupled with a knowledge of the trends of the themes of life running through the storyline
AelKennyr Rhiano: please explain?
Cinnamon Raymaker: how the character perceives these could convey a lot; particularly in their rendition of what is happening around them and how they see it as affecting them. i.e. motivation will be a key factor
AelKennyr Rhiano nods...so..intelligence AND a perceptiveness is what I am hearing?
Cinnamon Raymaker: ***Yes***
AelKennyr Rhiano: good. Belenos, what about you?
Belenos: I would have to give them a past.. not something vague.. but a past that would justify their current behaviours and outlook on life
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: good, so a personal history. Now, let's pause and define that that really is...and isn't
"I am a 12 level mage who has a fae/elven/mer mother and human father. both of whom died when I was a baby and I was raised by the king of a faraway land, and so I am roaming the world trying to find this hero because he is my long lost half brother...is that personal history? Oh...btw...I hate him.
Cinnamon Raymaker: heheLihan Taifun: it's the start of a personal history, maybe, but it doesn't have nearly enough detail yet to be useful
Cinnamon Raymaker: indeed
Belenos: umm.. some would say it is... but it says nothing about why the parents died, why he was raised by a king, and why he's trying to find his long lost half brother and why he hates him...
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: Bingo, It may be a backstory...AND a medical miracle.
Cinnamon Raymaker: motivation missing - what is driving the character
Belenos nods nods nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: but it is a very weak backstory, not very playable, and yes, that too, Cinnamon!
AelKennyr Rhiano: Also...I mean...what the heck?
Cinnamon Raymaker: hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is an important question we ask on our rp application..
9. What are some of the characteristics of your potential role play character?
Belenos: i think the weakness in so many backstories like that is they are trying to claim too may powers from too many races to give themselves power.. but in the end their character's believability is weak.. as is what can be done with them
Cinnamon Raymaker: agreed
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: and those with weak backstories or weak personal histories NEVER can answer this question. We get all kinds of goofiness
can play the role of a mage, a warrior and a liason with current and potential dragon allies. Oh, and knows Manwe personally.
Cinnamon Raymaker: heheShawn Daysleeper: lol
Lihan Taifun: lol
Belenos: omg
AelKennyr Rhiano: now here is another answer to that question.
I am currently of the age of 30. My human life began in Norway around 1280AD. I have 10 brothers. To help my family avoid the 11th child tax at the time and send home money when I could I left there originally for England on a ship set to go thru the Baltic Sea. I am a skilled bow man and negotiator in battles between peoples.
While on this voyage of 3 months I became ill with sea sickness. A woman came to me and used herbal medicines from her belt sack and slowly drew me back to good health. She was someone unlike anyone I had ever met. Strong will for the women of the time and mult-gifted.. We became good friends during this time and a romance started a new path by itself.
Out Ship entered England's Harbor and the seas got rough all of a sudden even thought it was raining. There screams on dead and people yelling ‚”Huge light in the sky.”
**It was a gate to a place that would change my life for ever and my friend's.** It drew our ship in like a vortex and suddenly the night sky cleared‚
Anya was by my side and never left me. I had a plan to change her life as well.
We were at sea for another good week and when we got off a strange dock. We docked and the village looks European but there were strange beings walking around and a few humans. I was honestly confused out of my head but tried to keep my focus of getting us both off the dock. I took Anya's hand and got down on one knee and proposed to her. She looked baffled for a second and her lips whispered yes. I got up and I held and her and we went into a strange tavern‚¶..We ate and drank and stayed over for 3 nights.
I ended up finding the chapel that was on the ship and married her on the 5th day we were there. After that we never saw the people we came with on the ship again.. Strangely enough I ended up finding an abandon manor and fits it up for us and paid a lord never by who owned the other side of the property to buy it out with 50 pieces of gold.
btw...there are several more paragraphs in this veinShawn Daysleeper: that was on the application?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, taken from an application
Shawn Daysleeper: wow ugh
Lihan Taifun: as "characteristics"?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yep, same question.
Shawn Daysleeper: looks like he doesn't have to rp anything lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Belenos: omg.. my brain got tired just reading that..
AelKennyr Rhiano: nodnodnod
Lihan Taifun: and he does't know much about history
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh, and btw, got miffed when I pointed out that we were actually Tolkien based Rp.. so, you know, his character should have some sort of relationship to Tolkien's world.
Lihan Taifun: I'm sure in anther page or two he could write a transition to the Tolkien universe :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: He decided we had to adapt our rp to him.
Cinnamon Raymaker shakes head
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...the personal history needs to do the following...
Explain WHO the character is...the motivation... oh, Lihan...no, he couldn't
The personal history should offer some solid reasoning why the character is the way he is... If he limps...why?
Belenos: we really are privileged when they want to Rp with us, aren't we?.. I mean, i cannnot understand why we'd not change everything we do to welcome them... *takes tongue out of cheek*
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Cinnamon Raymaker bites tongue hehehe
Shawn Daysleeper: lol
Lihan Taifun: yep, that's why they are already happily settled into a stable RP group already
Cinnamon Raymaker stifles another giggle
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...a personal history is not so much this blanket statement like I gave...it is more the framework upon which to build your character. And the weaker the frame, the weaker the character. When people don't know what to do with their characters...that often is a part of the reason why they are at a loss.
Cinnamon Raymaker: so realisitically - within the framework of my character I could turn bad depending on events
Belenos: oh yes.. :) like Aule.. :D sorta
AelKennyr Rhiano: You...Elwing? omg...yes
Cinnamon Raymaker: hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: you could become very bitter by all that has happened, for example.
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: Part of the problem you may have with direction for Elwing may lie in that she is being played TOO good.
Cinnamon Raymaker: hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is possible.
Cinnamon Raymaker: watch this space
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...we give our antagonist intelligence, perceptiveness, a past...Shawn what else?
Shawn Daysleeper: I am thinking. maybe antagonist changes their attitude somehow like became proudful or something similar
AelKennyr Rhiano: Alot of rpers don't stop to consider that. so a shift in attitude, Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: ya but what would cause the shift?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Good question and such a segue to something I was going to discuss next... :P
Cinnamon Raymaker: the straw that broke the camel's back
AelKennyr Rhiano: You brought up something VERY interesting, and that is how most people play the antagonist or a really major villain... Reticence or resistance to change.
To be clear, Reticence does not mean that the Antagonist is afraid of change. While that may be true, it may instead be that the Antagonist is simply comfortable with the way things are or may even be ecstatic about them. Or, he or she may not care about the way things are but hate the way they would become if the goal were achieved.
Think of LOTR...Gollum.. He was a bit resistant to change..was he not?
Belenos: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: And Sauron?
Lihan Taifun: on the other hand, Sauron was trying to make big changes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Was he?
Lihan Taifun: compared to the current situation
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wasn't he trying to revert everything back to an earlier state? where chaos ruled?
Lihan Taifun: or, where he ruled
AelKennyr Rhiano: yep
Lihan Taifun: but he certainly wasn't satisfied with the current situation
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, not is the least...
Antagonist will try anything and everything to prevent the goal from being achieved. No matter what the cost, any price would not seem as bad to this character as the conditions he or she would endure if the goal comes to be. The Antagonist will never cease in its efforts, and will marshal every resource (human and material) to see that the Protagonist fails in his efforts.
Belenos: so are we talking about change in themselves.. or change in the world around them?
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh..traditionally both. So...Shawn has thought out of the box. :))
Shawn Daysleeper: smiles
Lihan Taifun: to say the antagonist will do anything to stop the protagonist -- that is more a literary requirement than a realistic one?
AelKennyr Rhiano: And last but not least one last to be in the mix for our antagonist, Lihan? Our villian is intellgent, perceptive, with a personal history and a change in attitude.
Lihan Taifun: (er, I was going to say that the antagonist needed a goal, and one that is contrary to the protagonist, but we seem to have already discussed that)
AelKennyr Rhiano: can you think of another? Will get to your question in one moment.
Lihan Taifun: the antagonist needs to be powerful enough to be a creditable obstacle
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES Good one
ok...your question. Let's think back to our own rp. So far it has been fairly consistent that the "evil" in our rp is trying to stop the good guys, don't you think?
Belenos: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Lihan Taifun: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: And while in the real world, that "anything" might be mitigated...seldom is it in rp. But... that does not translate to "Bad is Bad and that's that."
Take your dragon, Belenos...could he be redeemed?
Belenos: oh yes... I was careful to leave that implication there when i explained the 'why' of how he is... if he were to meet someone with integrity and some selflessness it has the potential to redeem him
AelKennyr Rhiano: But...is it likely? see...that is the real trick... giving a powerful enemy character the potential for redemption while at the same time making it credibly unlikely they won't redeem themselves. notice the "unlikely" not "impossible."
Lihan Taifun: it would take some powerful circumstances
AelKennyr Rhiano: exactly
Belenos: actually yes it is... he hasn't become blindly destructive ... he is just bitter about being used .. if, for instance, he were in a dangerous situation.. and someone put themselves at risk to save him... it's possible.... but in the story how it is at the moment, the right situation would have to occur
AelKennyr Rhiano: Precisely
Belenos: so he's in the balance... he can get worse.. or better... grow in either direction
AelKennyr Rhiano: thus my choice of the word "unlikely"
Lihan Taifun: which means, if you went with a story arc about that, it would be a very dramatic story
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES! see, unlikely is not impossible. that is very important.
to make another example... It is currently unlikely Elwing would become an atagonist. but it is not impossible. And just like with Belenos' character, provide the right circumstances, the right story arc, and the incentive to make that change, and OMG...what a great rp story!
Cinnamon Raymaker: aye was just looking back over the nine questions card I made a couple of years back
AelKennyr Rhiano: Let's return to the question of "power". Power plays a tremendous role. : A lot of rpers follow this logic that has it so that the more powerful a character, the less like they are to change.
Cinnamon Raymaker: but wouldn't power allow you the freedom to do just that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: you would think, wouldn't you? But...let's take Lihan the sweet deer...
{Lihan is wearing fleecy reindeer pajamas.}
Lihan Taifun: :P
Shawn Daysleeper: hehe
Cinnamon Raymaker: hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Let's make her a demon...
Cinnamon Raymaker: i can see that ;P hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg...from the 30th level of hell. Older than the world, meaner than the meanest balrog..
Cinnamon Raymaker: and what a great disguise
AelKennyr Rhiano: Has a chipped tooth that has been aching her, too, so she is in a foul mood. She eats dragons for snacks.
Cinnamon Raymaker: hehehe
Shawn Daysleeper: grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: and loves roasted elves. None of us can stand against her. So...what incentive does she have to not be evil?
Cinnamon Raymaker: getting her tooth fixed? hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Lihan Taifun: nobody ever sends me Christmas cards?
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Fix my tooth or I will eat you."
Cinnamon Raymaker: hahaha
AelKennyr Rhiano: "fix my tooth SO I can eat you."
Cinnamon Raymaker giggles
AelKennyr Rhiano: You see with too much power, you have no incentive to be other than you are. The question becomes, though, how much power is TOO much. Does this all makes a sort of sense?
Shawn Daysleeper: yes it does
Lihan Taifun: and the kinds of things that motivate "good" characters wouldn't necessarily motivate a demon like that
AelKennyr Rhiano: Quite right.
Lihan Taifun: I probably don't care about anyone else
AelKennyr Rhiano: Why should you?
Lihan Taifun: if I did, I probably wouldn't have made the choices that got me where I am now
AelKennyr Rhiano: however...if you have ...for example...Perceptiveness...perhaps you will come to notice that it is very lonely at the top. You have no friends. And doubtful you bother with allies... So..there is this potential that...should you falter or fall short of being victorious over your enemies, you could die.
Belenos: umm.. is lihan on fire?
AelKennyr Rhiano: You would have no one who would lift a finger to aid you. Probably there would be a list of people ready to destroy you. she is an evil demon deer
Shawn Daysleeper: ya she is invincible demon with a toothache
Belenos: omg lol ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod, nod, nod
Belenos: yes, friendship and loyalty isn't big among baddies
AelKennyr Rhiano: now Lihan the evil demon deer can play such a powerful character, that something else can happen.
Lihan Taifun: everyone else in the RP gets bored and goes home?
AelKennyr Rhiano: People just give up and don't oppose her at all. yes!
Belenos: and that kinda ruins the story..
AelKennyr Rhiano: or they always give in
Lihan Taifun: yeah, what he said
Belenos: as the demon deer can just do what it wants
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Sure burn Alqualonde...oh and Tirion.."
Cinnamon Raymaker: LOL
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire." : it does ruin the story. It also ruins the rper. It is as bad as a godmodding hero.
Lihan Taifun: yummy.: and once I eat the hero, there is no story
AelKennyr Rhiano: and you get get hearburn...or be hungry an hour later.
So..tonight...to help you all...let's make a working definition of "too powerful." A rp villain is "too powerful" when...?
Cinnamon Raymaker: - no one wants to cross them for fear of being killed?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: when the villain can't be interacted with?
AelKennyr Rhiano: and? YES!
Lihan Taifun: the other characters can't successfully fight him
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Belenos: when he has no weaknesses. or she
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES YES!
Cinnamon Raymaker: he has a way of defeating anything another character can throw at him
AelKennyr Rhiano: If there is no credible way of defeating the villain...
Shawn Daysleeper: or is too strong for the antagonist?
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: if he cannot...yes, all that. So...see, you already know alot about playing a villain the right way.
Belenos: but...
AelKennyr Rhiano: Just as you don't want a hero who is always, happy, and smiling and able to meet all obstacles with no problem,....
Cinnamon Raymaker nods, every character needs some weaknesses
AelKennyr Rhiano: You don't want a villain who is always snarling, and evil and always wins.
Belenos: not only does the villain have to be played right.. but those opposing him have to do so right, as well... to defeat the villain you have to do it credibly
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes. But, Belenos? very very true. And yes, Cinnamon. Every character needs weaknesses.
Lihan Taifun: but the villain is going to make the protagonist sweat the whole way
AelKennyr Rhiano: See, it stinks to have a villain who is never defeated. but also it stinks to have a villain that can be too easily defeated.
Cinnamon Raymaker: couldn't that also work in reverse? what Lihan said
AelKennyr Rhiano: what do you mean, Cinnamon?
Lihan Taifun: a villain who is too easily defeated is just a minor nuisance
Cinnamon Raymaker: well sometimes the villain has to sweat it, to make it credible
Belenos: so basically we need balance
AelKennyr Rhiano: if there is true balance, both should suffer reversals and some obstacles.
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: So..when the balrog and the dragon came to Alqulonde, notice what the good guys didn't do... We didn't pull out bows and knives and swords...Aha!
Cinnamon Raymaker: indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: We didn't unroll our elven secret weapon. the Dedragonator 3000
Belenos: and miraculously hit the dragon in the eye with an arrow that penetrated teh brain
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Belenos: omg
AelKennyr Rhiano: :P
Cinnamon Raymaker: hahaha
Shawn Daysleeper: hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Since Nole and Olwe have been lightly armed, at best, in Alqualonde all this time...that night of the attack, they were also lightly armed. In fact, we were unarmed.
Lihan Taifun: I remember the planning session for that attack -- we were worried how we could let the balrog come to Alqualonde at all, since nobody would be able to stop him
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right
Belenos nods.. I remember that
AelKennyr Rhiano: and yes, it was a bit of a deus ex machina to have Ulmo rise out of the water and defend Alqualonde.
Lihan Taifun: "deus ex ocean"
AelKennyr Rhiano: true
Cinnamon Raymaker: and here I thought Ulmo did it out of love :) hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: It was in the script. and there was yet another element involved.... consequence.
Cinnamon Raymaker: indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ulmo himself mentioned consequence.
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
Lihan Taifun: Ulmo is going to get in trouble for doing that
AelKennyr Rhiano: He disobeyed Ulmo. {edit → Manwë} yes. And there was consequence on the side of the balrog and the dragon.
Belenos: empty bellies
AelKennyr Rhiano: And especially for the matron who summoned them.
Belenos: ohhh yes.. there will be consquences for her
AelKennyr Rhiano: So..as powerful as she is...with the ability to summon a balrog...she can be defeated.
Cinnamon Raymaker: hmmm a twist in the love and hate story for Nimros?
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Cinnamon Raymaker: a shift in the balance of power
AelKennyr Rhiano: See, to every summoning there is the potential to be destroyed by that which you summon, or that which you corrupt. Nimros is a far scarier character than the matron.
Cinnamon Raymaker wonders if thats why she is a goodie two-shoes. hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Lihan Taifun: ah, but how does Elwing react to a scene of carnage?
Cinnamon Raymaker: well she's seen plenty Lihan, beginning with her own family
Lihan Taifun: right, and how does it affect her, to see it playing out again?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Cinnamon Raymaker: you won't know til it happens. hehe
Lihan Taifun: :)
Belenos: actually even 'good' intentions can blow up in your face
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, yeah.
Belenos: see how aule was going to clear the dark magic and what happened to him?
AelKennyr Rhiano: And how Nienna was trying to be supportive of Aule.
Belenos: yes..
AelKennyr Rhiano: Does this all help with looking at powerful villains? Did I give you some things to consider?
Cinnamon Raymaker: indeed
Belenos: oh yes
Shawn Daysleeper: yes :)
Cinnamon Raymaker: makes me consider things in a different light
Lihan Taifun: we know what "too powerful" is
Cinnamon Raymaker: can only enrich the rp
AelKennyr Rhiano: when you are measuring how powerful the villain needs to be...has to be...consider this ...
The important thing is that the Antagonist must be in a position in the plot to place obstacles in the path of the Protagonist. Since the drive of the Protagonist is measured by the size of the obstacles he or she must overcome, it is usually a good idea to pick the character who can bring to bear the greatest obstacles. But never impossible ones.
Three elves with two handed swords should not be able to bring down a healthy balrog by themselves without one hell of a fight. On the other hand.... : one balrog should not wipe out every single person in a entire kingdom in 15 minutes.
Belenos nods nods nods. Belenos whispers: no.. he'd take his time and relish it.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: and some should escape. in a credible manner.
Cinnamon Raymaker: and be the sting in the tail that comes back to to attack him
AelKennyr Rhiano: :)
Lihan Taifun: yep
Cinnamon Raymaker: where is Gandalf when you need him?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Even he had limits.
Cinnamon Raymaker: aye but he changed during the fight
Lihan Taifun: he died in that fight
AelKennyr Rhiano: that was kinda a change..yes...:P
Cinnamon Raymaker: indeed – reborn,hehe
Belenos: i liked how after the Balrog got him, he didn't instantly rematerialise
AelKennyr Rhiano: Me, too, Belenos.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Soo, any thoughts, questions, comments?
Lihan Taifun: this is good, this helps in thinking about villains
AelKennyr Rhiano: yay!
Belenos smiles.. it does
Shawn Daysleeper: yes this is good :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: I know I can take the long way around...but I hope it is worth it.
Cinnamon Raymaker: well you made us think, which is good
AelKennyr Rhiano: :)
Shawn Daysleeper: smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: I am proud, very proud of the quality of our rp.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes me too :)
Cinnamon Raymaker: well you are all so helpful, it is a joy to work with you
AelKennyr Rhiano: And you are a pleasure to rp with.
Cinnamon Raymaker smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: I love rping with our rpers.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Do we want to continue next week? or another topic?
Belenos: what topic do you suggest?
Shawn Daysleeper: want to continue with villains nxt time?
Belenos: well, what more is there to do with them, do you think?
Shawn Daysleeper: I am not sure
Lihan Taifun: do we have more about fighting powerful opponents, beyond "don't make them too powerful"?
Belenos: shawn was asking while you were gone if we need to talk about villains some more next week or not?
AelKennyr Rhiano: up to you. we can work on forming practical guidelines, or we can move onto another topic.
Belenos: i was wondering what else needed to be covered on them?
Lihan Taifun: or "powerful opponents" in general
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, we can talk about how to play powerful protagonists.
Belenos: what about a 'how to fight/defeat/out manoever them?' ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: we can do that
Lihan Taifun: that sounds good
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok
Shawn Daysleeper: yes it does
Belenos: i've seen so many role plays where someone encounters a baddie and kinda just charges in.. and somehow miraculously wins
AelKennyr Rhiano: yeah, ok...we will do that, then. And baddies do the same.
Belenos: k.. :) oh yes
Shawn Daysleeper: ok :)
Lihan Taifun: sounds very good
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was why I like the way you and Leo rped raiding the dwarves on Blue Mountain.
Belenos smiles.. by putting some thought into it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Lihan Taifun: sneaky dragon
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Belenos: hehe.. suraumo didn't get where he was by being all brawn and no brains
AelKennyr Rhiano: exactly
AelKennyr Rhiano: And omg...Leo really did a good job.
Lihan Taifun: he did
Belenos: and even when playing a baddie, you have to leave things open.. when the dragon and balrog had that little spat when they got back from alqualonde
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was brilliant.
Belenos: even though the dragon hit the balrog with his tail I also made him trip and fall to make him vulnerable.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was such a great detail.
Belenos smiles. no point having a weakness if you don't role play it.. :)