Shawn Daysleeper
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Summary:
Tonight we start from the viewpoint of playing a big, bad character.
Review — The elements of a good narrative, or story, or roleplay:
Plot : The sequence of events in a story
Exposition - Writing that provides information about:
a) Setting
b) Some main characters
c) Hint at conflict
• Complication - Single event that begins the rising action
• Rising Action - Events that lead up to the Climax
• Climax - (AKA Turning Point/Crisis) Crucial moment when the hero's fate hangs in the balance
• Falling Action - All events that follow the turning point
• Resolution - Outcome of the conflict (the end)
Protagonist - Main character, normally the "Good Guy"
Antagonist - Character who opposes protagonist
Nearly all conflict falls under one of these following groups :
Internal Conflict - Struggle within the Character's
• Character vs. SelfExternal Conflict - Struggle between a character and an outside force
a) Character vs. Character
b) Character vs. Nature
c) Character vs. Society/Group
d) Character vs. Technology/Machine
Characterization. Each character will have one attribute from “shape” and one attribute from “dimension”.
The "Shape" set consists of:
a) Static - A character who remains the same through the whole story. Keeps his views on something/everything.
b) Round (“Nonstatic”/”Fluid”) - A character who undergoes a large change through the story. Changes his views on something/everything.
The "Dimension" set consists of:
a) Flat - Character who has one side to its personality
b) Round - Character that has many sides or dimensions to its personality
We describe Leo's Balrog as “static” and “well-rounded”.
We consider Belenos' process in creating the character of Súraumo the dragon. First we start with the stereotype of a dragon — big, breathing fire, kicking butt. The first decision was whether to stick with the stereotype, or go contrary to it. The second decision was whether to leave Súraumo as a generic, stereotypical dragon, or to add to his personality. Belenos decided to next pick a weakness (in fact, several weaknesses) for him.
It is difficult to find the right balance for a powerful character, between “too strong” and “too weak.”
Why do players often make their characters unbeatably powerful? Sometimes it is ego/”win at all costs.” Sometimes, as with a dragon, it is realistic that the character be very strong. Sometimes it is fear of having one's character die.
In Fourth Age, most story arcs are outlined in advance (by the players and the weekly RP leaders' meeting), and there is no danger of a character getting “accidentally” killed. Other groups with other systems have rules covering characters who get killed, such as “after 3 days, the character can be revived.” This situation may come up in Fourth Age at some future time (although reviving a dead character could be rough on the continuity of the story).
We discussed “deus ex machina” -- improbable, miraculous solutions to problems. Fourth-Age style pre-planning (which the people present think of as part of the rp process), allows us time to think of plausible solutions and escapes, rather than implausible ones. Recent RP sessions demonstrate that this planning does not inhibit spontaneity as much as you might think.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Soo...tonight we are supposed to talk about facing the Big and the Bad in rp
Lihan Taifun: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: listens
AelKennyr Rhiano: Does anyone have any particular thing they want to address?
Belenos: well.. are we looking at this from the viewpoint of playing a baddy or playing against one?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is up to all of you?
Lihan Taifun: the two sides must be related
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Can we do both? One after the other?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: sure :)
Belenos looks at Ael.... which one first then?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, there is something we have touched upon when we talked before about playing the villain in the rp...that is the fact that a truly well fleshed out villain is not all bad.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I remember that.'
Shawn Daysleeper: nods I remember
AelKennyr Rhiano: No matter how some rpers may feel or may argue this..... good rp is basically the acting out of a good story.
Belenos: yes..
AelKennyr Rhiano: so...if I may...let me throw out some basics for review for tonight's discussion. And We really have not spoken of them quite in this manner, but you may remember this from when you were in school, talking about what makes a good narrative or story...
The elements of rp...
Plot : The sequence of events in a story
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles at the reference to 'school' and listens with interest
AelKennyr Rhiano: under plot falls :
Exposition - Writing that provides information about:
a) Setting
b) Some main charaters
c) Hint at conflict
Complication - Single event that begins the rising action
Rising Action - Events that lead up to the Climax
Climax - (AKA Turning Point/Crisis) Crucial moment when the hero's fate hangs in the balance
Falling Action - All events that follow the turning point
Resolution - Outcome of the conflict (the end)
Conflict : A struggle between two opposing forces (Normally Protaganist vs. Antagonist)
Protagonist - Main character, normally the "Good Guy"
Antagonist - Character who opposes protagonist
under the idea of conflict...nearly all conflict falls under one of these following groups :
Internal Conflict - Struggle within the Character's mind.
There is only one type of Internal Conflict : Man vs. Self
External Conflict - Struggle between a character and an outside force
There are 4 types of External Conflict:
a)Man vs. Man
b)Man vs. Nature
c)Man vs. Society/Group
d)Man vs. Technology/Machine
Lihan Taifun mutters, although, since the days of Tolkien, they have also invented women
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol yes
Shawn Daysleeper: yes I understand
AelKennyr Rhiano: so...with apologies to the fairer sex, by "man" I do include both genders and elves and dragons :P AND dwarves :P
Lihan Taifun: "people"
Belenos: characters
AelKennyr Rhiano: and lastly, what may be germane to the topic tonight...characterization.
AelKennyr Rhiano:
The "Shape" set consists of:
a) Static - A character who remains the same through the whole story. Keeps his views on something/everything.
b) Round - A character who undergoes a large change through the story. Changes his views on something/everything.
The "Dimension" set consists of:
a) Flat - Character who has one side to its personality
b) Round - Character that has many sides or dimensions to its personality
AelKennyr Rhiano gives the men and the woman a moment to read and digest all that.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Belenos: cannot b from dimension also be a b from shape?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, here it the different...and it is a a subtle one. Here is the difference
Shawn Daysleeper: yes I understand the dimension and shape
AelKennyr Rhiano: under shape you are really talking the character's development...how they are impacted or not impacted by the events of the story. Round can be replace with "nonstatic" or "fluid." a static character...nothing changes her or him.
Belenos: oh right.. so they can't be both parts of one set, but can be parts of each set... told you i was a bit slow tonight..
AelKennyr Rhiano: no, no, it can be tricky. The second found we are talking about the facet of personality. Does everyone see the difference?
Belenos: yes... I do now.. *smiles*
AelKennyr Rhiano: :)
Shawn Daysleeper: smiles
Lihan Taifun: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles...'Yes.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...let's take Leo's Balrog for example. his "shape" or "viewpoint of the world" is that static or round overall.
AelKennyr Rhiano: What do you think, Rhun?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I'd think static so far?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yep
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: And the dimension, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: but he hasn't been in the story very long, so it might be too soon to tell. Dimension his is fairly rounded, at least for monsters
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wait a moment..."for monsters?" Why that qualifier?
Lihan Taifun: monsters are frequently portrayed very one-dimensional
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes...but it sounded like you were implying that if Leo's character were human, your answer might be different.
Lihan Taifun: I'm also hedging a bit, because Leo hasn't played very many scenes with the balrog, so we haven't seen him a lot
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...now...let's relate this back to stories and books a moment...If we had read this far into a story and encountered Leo with the same frequency, would you drop your quaifiers about "so far" and " we have not seen him alot?"
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'No, you are right, I would have already put him in the 'this guy is not going to learn and grow' category.'
Lihan Taifun: it gets a bit muddled in my brain, between "Leo playing Leo's balrog" and "Lihan playing Leo's balrog"
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I can see that.
Belenos: I was just thinking that the balrog has actually been in the story quite a bit lately.. between the attack and what he's doing with suraumo now...
AelKennyr Rhiano: So, atm we have TWO very powerful foes. And there are a number of levels at which to examine them. So...I am asking you guys to think a little tonight. When we first think of Suraumo, the dragon, what springs to our mind.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Big and grumpy?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol ok
Belenos grins.. big and grumpy and OLD
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok
Lihan Taifun: and a bit desperate
AelKennyr Rhiano: Shawn?
Belenos: i do have other thoughts about him too, but that's because i'm inside his head because i created him
Shawn Daysleeper: he's hungry hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right...so I am going to tap into that in a second.
Shawn Daysleeper: and focuses on that
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ok...good. but before all that pops into your mind...When we mention him, MY first thought is : OMG A dragon! Firebreathing, kick our butts dragon!"
Rhûn Darkmoon nods nods nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think of the stereotype
Belenos: yes.. most people would..
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: so that is the first level...generic dragon...he comes for dinner...we are all the entree...We die...everyone is sad.
Lihan Taifun: and he DOES breathe fire and kick butt
AelKennyr Rhiano: nodnodnodnod
Belenos: not everyone is sad.. the dragon's not.. *grins*
AelKennyr Rhiano: well, unless we give him hearburn...you are right.
so...when Belenos is creating HER dragon, she knows in the back of her mind that is the image "dragon" invokes. She can stay with that...she can use it to build upon, or she can create her dragon completely counter to it.
Belenos: so the 'general public concept' is sort of the starting point of building his character
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes. you can stick with it and have a static, flat character...sometimes you need and want such a character... or you can add upon it, creating more complex levels... Shall we demonstrate? Would that help?
Shawn Daysleeper: yes I think so
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Please.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...with your assistance, Belenos?
Belenos: of course.. *smiles*
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...so we have Suraumo, dragon... firebreathing...hungry...big dragon, right?
Belenos: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: now, after you decided, "I want to create Suraumo." what was the first decision you made about him...the first one thing.
Belenos blushes... I sat and pondered what his weaknesses would be...
AelKennyr Rhiano grins...so..."weaknesses" — Already he is not a generic dragon anymore, is he?
Belenos: yes.. it's far easier to build a character around his weaknesses rather than build the character and then try to give him weaknesses.. no... because few view generic dragons as having any true weaknesses.. it's usually a case of finding enough might to overpower the might of the dragon
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly. Erm...she kinda got ahead of the teacher :P but it's great!
Belenos blushes and then grins.. does this mean I get an A?
AelKennyr Rhiano: you get an A. So...with each decision Belenos made, she built and took away from the generic concept of "dragon?"
Shawn Daysleeper: claps
Belenos beams
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Yay!'
Lihan Taifun: would we say Smaug's weakness was that he was vain and overconfident?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'And you didn't stop at one flaw, did you? You gave him several things.'
Belenos: well yes... what is more fun.. rping a dragon that huffs and puffs and stomps and is Mr Macho He Man Dragon.. or one with things that can happen to him... like hurting his foot when he turns to his blind side and hits a sharp stump.. or biting down on a dwarven shield on a bad tooth.. it kinda gave me much more scope with him
AelKennyr Rhiano: But it makes you able to be defeated.
Belenos: of course it does... dragons are not unbeatable... it also gives me more of a challenge playing him... he has to THINK to try to make sure he isn't defeated, the same as everyone else does
AelKennyr Rhiano: the problem with a lot of very powerful foes in rp is that people either play them too weak, or too powerful.
Lihan Taifun: if a character can't be beaten, then nothing really INTERESTING can happen to him
AelKennyr Rhiano: Very few rpers hit that happy medium. very true, Lihan. The question is WHY do some rp their foes unbeatable?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Ego?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes...ego. what else
Belenos: the 'win at all costs' mentality?...
Lihan Taifun: dragons really are powerful, compared to most other beings
AelKennyr Rhiano: is that different from ego...are we talking macho? the machismo?
Belenos: no.. aren't we all taught it's bad to fail?.. so we must win..be the best...
AelKennyr Rhiano: aaah...ok
Belenos: but not everyone can be 'the' best.. they just don't realise that
AelKennyr Rhiano: the drive to be the best. So...ego...fear of failure. and yes, Lihan, they are by their very nature. There is another reason... Fear of their character dying.
Belenos thinks.. but shouldn't that be covered in their RP limits?
AelKennyr Rhiano: depends upon the rp, and fear is not always rational.
Belenos: yes.. that is true.. and not everyone plays within a planned rp setting like we do
AelKennyr Rhiano: right
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: so...you have personal ego
Lihan Taifun: we don't have anything in 4th Age preventing characters from dying
AelKennyr Rhiano: We do...by default. the weekly rp leaders' meeting.
Belenos: no... but for example, with the fight that the balrog and dragon had, we did discuss beforehand what would happen... he couldn't jsut turn on my character mid-scene and kill him
AelKennyr Rhiano: We have very active admins
Shawn Daysleeper: right
{Shawn needs to leave. Farewells.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: We can continue this next week if you guys want?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, as we grow and take on more rpers, the time may come when we will set a standard procedure about things like what is called "permanent death"
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I was about to ask if there is any other kind, but I suppose some can be resurrected.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes there is. Commonly a rp death lasts for 3 days.
Lihan Taifun: how does that affect continuity?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It blows it for the most part if they are allowed to continue that rp character.
Belenos: i was going to say it would kinda shoot a story in the foot. either they died or they didn't
AelKennyr Rhiano: And then you can get into the deus ex machina mode.
Belenos whispers: what's that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is latin for "god in the machine" Let me give you an example.
Belenos: please.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: Rhun is walking along, smiling, sniffing the flowers... a happy elf...not a care in the world...
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: When...all of a sudden..for the skies above, descends the hungry, bad-tempered Suraumo, who opens his maw and swallows Rhun whole.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Yikes!'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Poor Rhun... We cry, have a funeral...drinks lots of ale and remember him fondly.
AelKennyr Rhiano: But...wait...he is not dead.
Belenos: alive and partying in a dragon's belly?
AelKennyr Rhiano: because... it just so happens that Suraumo has acid reflux...and a small esophagus.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Ewww. I think I'd prefer to die.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: And Rhun...feeling himself sliding down the dragon's gully...starts kicking and remembers to brace himself against the walls of of the esophagus. Suraumo can't swallow him, so he can digest the lucky elf. But...wait...Rhun then remember his small dagger he had stuck in his boot..
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks of all the slime and cinders and left over dwarven bits he'd encounter, 'Yup, I'm gonna need one hell of a lysol bath afterwards.'
Lihan Taifun shudders
AelKennyr Rhiano: so he take that and starts poking at the dragon...who ...promptly coughs him back up
Belenos: and leave him coughed back up?
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...we stay far, far away until Rhun bathes and then party like crazy... Yaya, he lives!
Belenos grins at the far far away bit
Rhûn Darkmoon nods nods nods, 'I'd stay far far away from me too until I'd bathed. At least six times.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh...but then Suraumo remember to take his antiacid and goes back looking for his missing dinner and finds Rhun stumbling home drunk from his party. Snatches him up and is about to swallow him.
Belenos: lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: And just then...Aule comes along and get suspicious about this screaming bulge in the dragon's cheek.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'who has fortunately managed to not be pierced by a dragon tooth in any of this.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: right -- so...deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.
Belenos: some 'unlikely' new event etc?
Lihan Taifun: the name comes from ancient Greek theater, when at the end of the story, one of the gods would suddenly show up, wave a hand, and magically fix everyone's problems
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I thought it sounded familiar.'
Belenos: that's sort of like what they do in the daytime soap operas my mum used to watch..
AelKennyr Rhiano: right
Lihan Taifun: it's the "magically", not-related-to-anything-else-in-the story that makes it "deus ex machina"
Belenos: gods.. how many times would a character die or disappear.. lost at sea.. in a car wreck.. house fire..
AelKennyr Rhiano: but yet...they survive...like our Rhun
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'I am apparently a hardy little elf.'
Belenos: lol.. or damned lucky
AelKennyr Rhiano: The gods favor him. It was a very common device in greek tragedies
Belenos: yes, but wouldn't that wear thin after a while in RP?
AelKennyr Rhiano: If it is the only way to ensure the survival for your rp character...
Lihan Taifun: wear thin the first time?
Belenos: umm.. that's why i said 'after a while'.. how many lucky escapes can one have?
AelKennyr Rhiano: you have to ask soap opera writers :P
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'But this is again working under the assumption that something unexpected will happen to one's character. It's not like that in how we RP, but I know it can be in other lands.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: what is so different, I think about our rp, is that people see the planning we do and they assume we take all the spontaneity out of the rp.
Lihan Taifun: we have time to work out plausible, rather than implausible, escapes
AelKennyr Rhiano: but the rp last night...that was very spontaneous. Yes, we do.
Lihan Taifun: I wonder if they discount the "planning" as part of the rp process
AelKennyr Rhiano: some do. But there is also, to consider, a lack of understanding the elements of building a solid rp character. There is a great many rpers for whom the quality of the story has little value.
Belenos: it's all about personal gratification
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: for me, the planning, and getting into my character's head, IS one of the fun parts
AelKennyr Rhiano: Me, too. I think that knowing where we are headed helps me get into the character and feel them
AelKennyr Rhiano: Pardon me, but may we stop there for tonight?
Belenos: yes .. this is a big topic..
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...thank you.