Lihan Taifun
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Leo (leonardo.rainfall)
Rajani (rajani.milton)
Summary:
Previous information about Dwarves:
(Also:
(This discussion is especially focused on how the Dwarves will react to the upcoming dragon/balrog attack, and its aftermath.)
Dwarves are probably nearsighted. They would not see danger approaching from a distance. Dwarvish hearing is probably comparable to Human.
Elves (and Tolkien) usually call Dwarves “Naugrim”. {Lihan looks at her dictionary: Naug (single)/Naugrim (the race) is Sindarin.} The Quenya words Nauco (“stunted”) and Norno (“mishapen”) were impolite. Dwarves call themselves Khazâd; this passed into Quenya as “Casar”, which would be the polite term.
{Casar: a Dwarf
Carari: Dwarves in general
Casalli: some Dwarves
Casallië: the Dwarf race}
There are no Dwarves in the Undying Lands. Olwë, Nolë, and other Teleri who have travelled extensively may have met Dwarves in their travels, especially to Middle Earth.
Dwarves traditionally learn the languages of the other races around them, to use when dealing with those races, and keep their own native language private for themselves. Aztryd was speaking Human/Common to Nolë when they first met. She is fluent in Sindarin (which is why she does not have trouble communicating in Alqualondë), and has probably picked up quite a few words of Quenya in the time she has been in there.
Aztryd finds all the stairs and furniture in Alqualondë too tall. While she is in very good physical shape, and dwarves are tough, it is a constant strain on her to maneuver in these out-of-proportion surroundings. She would never admit to the discomfort.
Dwarves prefer to buy, rather than grow, food and some other supplies. Dwarves generally do a lot of trading with other races living nearby. By the Fourth Age, much of the prejudice between Dwarves and Elves had passed; the Teleri were never involved in those quarrels anyway.
Dwarves in the Fourth Age have probably never heard of Alqualondë, and never paid much attention to inaccessible lands or islands.
In the Fourth Age, Dwarves probably still have legends about their creator, Aulë. Probably those legends include the other Valar, as “brothers and sisters of the Maker,” but the Dwarves would not share the Elves' devotion to Manwë and the other Valar.
While a Dwarf settlement would be mostly underground, with heavy gates, some activities would take place outdoors in good weather, in peacetime. Possibly there are gardens (not easily accessed by outsiders)for fresh produce. Some Dwarf settlements have ventilation/light shafts to the outside. All would have multiple entrances/escape routes.
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...so..dwarves in the rp.
Lihan Taifun: dwarves in the RP, yes. what is a good format, what information is useful?
AelKennyr Rhiano: any of it that would help a person play a dwarf as it would be compatible in a Tolkien inspired rp?
Belenos chuckles.. isn't that always the way, Ael?
Lihan Taifun: Physical characteristics:
Dwarves are roughly 3-4 feet (1.0-1.3 m) tall, “stout and stocky”
They all have beards, men, women, and babies.
Female dwarves seldom go out among the other races; when they do, the other races cannot distinguish male and female dwarves.
Dwarvish hearing and distance-vision are mediocre compared to humans, poor compared to elves.
They have a good sense of direction underground.
They don't move quietly.
Typical Dwarf lifespan is 240-260 years.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Soo.....no ninja dwarves?Lihan Taifun: not around Elves, that's for sure
Belenos: and they'd not see a dragon coming in the distance either, I imagine.. so they'd be slow to react
AelKennyr Rhiano: Probably heard him before they see him? Are they nearsighted, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: I play Aztryd as nearsighted, yes. since there are dwarf jewelers, I assume their close-up vision is fine
Belenos: and it says hearing also
Lihan Taifun: hearing isn't as good as elves, might be about the same as humans
Belenos: umm.. points up: “Dwarvish hearing and distance-vision are mediocre compared to humans”
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...from what I am reading, dwarves would be more prone to trust humans than elves?
Belenos: that refers to hearing as well as distance vision; it seems that way, yes
Lihan Taifun: I'm trying to remember whether Tolkien specifically said anything about hearing
AelKennyr Rhiano: And their senses are about on par with humans, perhaps not near as keen?
Lihan Taifun: about on par with humans, yes
Belenos: well where did that quote come from that was put into the chat here?.. I keep talking here and stopping reading the page so I haven't encountered it yet
Lihan Taifun: I was thinking of "mediocre" as "middling, not better than"
Belenos: yes.. mediocre is middling
Lihan Taifun: it came from my general memories of dwarves; not any specific quote
AelKennyr Rhiano: Naugrim -- should we be referring to dwarves by that term?
Lihan Taifun: Naugrim is one of the Elvish names, it means "stunted", so it isn't really flattering. Khazad is what the dwarves call themselves
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Well, would we call them that?
Belenos: if it's what the elves call them?
Lihan Taifun: You might, and Olwe might be embarrassed if he realized he just said that out loud in Aztryd's hearing
AelKennyr Rhiano: Naugrim, you mean?
Rajani: Tolkien does call them Naugrim a lot in the Silm. yeah could be interesting to see Aztryd's reaction
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would he know to call them Khazad?
Shawn Daysleeper: so Naugrim is a degrading term?
Lihan Taifun: a bit degrading, yes
Belenos: or is it just that to the tall elves the dwarves WERE stunted... was it meant as degrading or are we just putting our modern interpretation on it?
Lihan Taifun: we don't know the answer to that, Belenos. "Casar" is the Quenya spelling of Khazad
Belenos: Khazad is dwarvish isn't it? a dwarvish word?
Lihan Taifun: " According to WJ, Casar — Quenyaized form of Dwarvish Khazâd — "was the word most commonly used in Quenya for the Dwarves". Nauco "stunted one" and norno "thrawn one" are less polite words for "dwarf"; yet norno is stated to be "the more friendly term". But the Dwarves themselves would definitely prefer Casar."
Khazad is a dwarvish word, yes, and it passed into Quenya as Casar
Belenos: it was according to the nature of the Dwarves that ... travelling about the lands, ... they should use the languages of men among whom they dwelt. Yet in secret (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed little by the years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than a cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past.
that's on the page we are reading..
Lihan Taifun: yes, the dwarves learned the languages of the other races around them
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, ok...so we elves should call them the Casar?
Lihan Taifun: Casar would be the polite word, yes
Belenos: so i'd say the elves would not use the dwarvish word for them.. perhaps the Casar?.. would Aztryd be speaking quenya or human to the elves of alqualonde?
Lihan Taifun: whether all the elves would use the polite word, that probably depends on each elf
AelKennyr Rhiano nods...that helps. But I am guesing that by the 4th Age, dwarves would not necessarily know Quenya? oh, yes, I agree, Lihan, but Nole and Olwe would not be offensive on purpose.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Lihan Taifun: I agree about the Quenya. I think Aztryd was speaking Sindarin to Nole when they first met, and she also knows human/Common
AelKennyr Rhiano nods...Nole as a merchant would know Sindarin. And Olwe would as well, over the passing of the centuries.
Lihan Taifun: Aztryd has probably been picking up some words of Quenya by now. maybe that is why she likes Elwing so much ... Sindarin is Elwing's native language
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think she would have a basic vocabulary by now. AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I would think the way Olwe would speak it or Nole would sound a bit strange to her.
AelKennyr Rhiano: So, in playing Aztryd, what are some of the racial qualities you try to portray, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: Aztryd ... she's short. All the furniture is the wrong size
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: all the stairs are the wrong size; she is stubborn
AelKennyr Rhiano: So, really, when she is walking around Alqualonde, by the end of the day, she should be in a little bit of pain. I never thought of that.
Rajani: poor Aztryd
Lihan Taifun: although she is in very good physical shape; she doesn't tire easily; but yeah, all day climbing stairs that are too high; it's hard on her knees
Belenos: it says somewhere on this page that dwarves endure pain better than most.. *tries to find it*
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, but with everything the wrong height and out of proportion to her, her muscles have to be tight and cramping by day's end.
Lihan Taifun: and she would NEVER admit that; dwarves don't whine
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. It says they are sturdy folk. No, I can't imagine her admitting it. Complain, yes, but admit pain or fatigue, no.
Belenos: found it.. "Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever."
AelKennyr Rhiano: How does she view elves, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: she comes from communities that had good trading relationships with elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: What clans?
Lihan Taifun: this is Fourth Age, so a lot of the prejudice is past; in the Blue mountains, they traded with the Grey Havens
Shawn Daysleeper: Nole has not shown any prejudice; maybe because he was not in Beleriand when the incident with the necklace happened
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Well, I would think she is more a curiosity to us, as we really as Teleri never ...yep
Shawn Daysleeper: he would have been aware as a trading merchant, but he chose not to be prejudice
Lihan Taifun: in her husband's home, actually they mostly traded with Minas Tirith; the Teleri of Alqualonde would have only met dwarves when they travelled to Middle Earth; if you ever docked at the Grey Havens, you may have met dwarves in the markets
AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Lihan Taifun: the dwarves prefered to buy their food, rather than farm, so there was a lot of trading
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would the dwarves still remember Aule as their Maker by the 4th Age?
Belenos: I would think that is something never forgotten... like legend
Lihan Taifun: in legends, yes, I would expect
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well...you know, over the course of time...beliefs can fall into the realm of myth, superstition, legend.
Lihan Taifun: now, if Aztryd realized that some of the elves in Alqualonde have *met* Aule, she'd probably faint dead away
AelKennyr Rhiano gets out his "I met Aule" t shirt :P Did she recognize Ulmo? Would she know the Valar outside of Aule?
Lihan Taifun: she couldn't see what was going on down at the harbor that well
AelKennyr Rhiano: oops...true, but when others mentioned him, did she knew who he was?
Lihan Taifun: she would recognize the name, but she wouldn't have the devotion to Manwe and the rest of the Valar that the elves do
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: the rest of the Valar would be "brothers and sisters of the Maker", but not terribly relevant. I can imagine the dwarves feeling a bit defensive about their position in the cosmos, and the "Children of Iluvatar"
AelKennyr Rhiano: Still? AelKennyr Rhiano nods. How would they feel about relocating to Alqualonde. Would they have any knowledge of the Swanhaven at all?
Lihan Taifun: probably no knowledge at all. I doubt they paid any attention at all to land they couldn't get to
AelKennyr Rhiano: And there would be no mention of it in their legends.
Lihan Taifun: nope, that is elf stuff, no interest in ancient elf history
Rajani: :D
Belenos: so in a way it's most unusual that she's befriended the elves as she has
Lihan Taifun: very unusual. it was very unusual circumstances that threw her into Alqualonde
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...coming to the Swan haven, living and building in an elven city is going to change the survivors.
Lihan Taifun: it will. that will be living much closer to elves than they are used to
Belenos: it sounds like it will be very challenging for them in a lot of ways
Lihan Taifun: and a clan of elves different from the ones they have met
Rajani: are Aztryd's dwarves coming here?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Some survivors, Rajani
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...what is a dwarven settlement like?
Lihan Taifun: mostly underground
Belenos: so how would anyone know they were there?
Lihan Taifun: I imagine some gardens and chicken coops, above ground in places outsiders wouldn't ever see, though
AelKennyr Rhiano: How would those be hidden?
Belenos: that's one of the things I was going to ask.. what do they eat?
Lihan Taifun: if you have mountains, you can put them up on hillsides that don't face the accesible entrances. dwarves usually buy food from other races, but how could you buy all your produce and milk? that's why I imagine some gardens and chickens and a couople milk cows
AelKennyr Rhiano: What would an enemy see of a dwarven settlement from the air? the ground?
Lihan Taifun: mostly see closed stone gates. the windows might be visible from the outside
AelKennyr Rhiano: Windows? Like above ground dwellings?
Lihan Taifun: Moria had windows
AelKennyr Rhiano: ooohh
Belenos: did it?..
Lihan Taifun: skylights? Shafts to let in light? not necessarily glass windows; but the Lonely Mountain didn't have windows, so that might depend on your mountain; there would be lots of back entrances
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...think of it as akin to those environmental friendly homes that are set into a hillside?
Lihan Taifun: yes!
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Belenos: soooo.. a dragon or balrog flying overhead may have smelt their cooking fires? through these shafts?
Lihan Taifun: they might
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would have to...They have to have an exhaust system.
Lihan Taifun: or seen some outdoor work areas
Belenos: yes...
AelKennyr Rhiano: and might have seen a door left open. or dwarves disappearing into the side of the mountain, or a trail that seems to lead to nowhere.
Belenos: Leo.. it was you who said about the settlement, wasn't it?
Leo: Yes, it was
Lihan Taifun: I would think some messy jobs would be done outdoors on nice days
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ohhh...wait...would dwarves do their own tanning of hides? or candlewicking?
Lihan Taifun: those dwarves wouldn't be expecting trouble, so they wouldn't be making any effort to hide
AelKennyr Rhiano: Making soap?
Lihan Taifun: that sort of thing, yes. messy, smelly, good stuff to do outdoors
Belenos: ok... so it'll be up to you to tell Suraumo where to go exactly... like 'ok, now just over the other side of this mountain.. you can smell their hearthfires.. but I circled and found their entrance..
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, you can not only see those things...but smell them. Leo's balrog could have smelled them tanning hides...
Lihan Taifun: "boiled leather” makes good armor, and it has to smell horrible
AelKennyr Rhiano: or taking their yearly baths...ducks behind Shawn
Belenos: LOL
Leo: lol
Lihan Taifun: oh, now it's going to be dwarves in bathtubs, is it
AelKennyr Rhiano: So there will be external evidence of life there. :P
Shawn Daysleeper: hehe
Lihan Taifun: there would be external evidence
AelKennyr Rhiano: :P the next rp storyline: "Aztryd, unbearded" hahahaha
Lihan Taifun glares
Belenos: ok... good.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: eek
Belenos: and not all dwarven tunnels are small and pokey are they?.. there would be a lot of large'ish areas for a dragon to fit into .. like in Moria?
Lihan Taifun: like Moria, yes
{We run out of time.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: Next week ....Facing the unbeatable Foe! And I hope Leo and Belenos will be here for that.
Belenos: considering we both play two of the most powerful beings (other than spirit beings) in the Rp i would think so