Present:
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
AelKennyr Rhiano
William Shrinshee (william.foresight)
Mark (mark.irelund)
Summary:
Tolkien Elves do not die from old age or disease. They can be wounded, and can be killed by a sufficiently serious wound. This remains true of the Elves in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age/beginning of Fourth Age.
Dungeons & Dragons game was developed after Tolkien's works were published and well known. It was developed (as a board game with dice) before internet was available to home users, long before MMORPGs or virtual worlds.
Everyone is inevitably affected by the prevalent ideas of their culture. Once you are exposed to an idea, you can't “unknow” it. Both Tolkien and D&D have influenced popular culture and people's assumptions about what elves (and other beings) are like. That makes it especially important to be aware of which information is fact (in a given universe), and which is assumption.
D&D elves are long lived (500 years or more). They are said to grow “physically weaker and mentally stronger” with age. A character truly unaffected by age would be too powerful for a roleplaying game. There are subraces of elves for nearly any imaginable environment: wood elves, rock elves, snow elves, etc.
The physical appearance of D&D elves is fairly similar to Tolkien elves, except that D&D elves are slightly shorter than humans, whereas Tolkien elves are slightly taller. D&D describes the physical appearance in more detail than Tolkien, and has more variation in appearance between different groups of elves.
The history and culture of D&D elves is very different from that of Tolkien elves.
How can a Tolkien-based roleplay be “fantasy inclusive”? How might we justify including other beings?
• A realistic universe would include evolution – species changing in response to their environment.
• Elves living in different environments would be exposed to different stresses.
• Therefore it makes sense that elves have diversified over the millenia.
The question then becomes, “Could we make a case for a group of elves to develop the power of flight?” and “What would be a realistic result of this evolution?” Evolving flight would take time, and would involve trade-offs.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ok.....Avariel elves... The other night, at Tolkien discussion, there was alot of things thrown about that were not exactly facts, so if you wouldn't mind, I would like to make some preliminary statements about elves in D&D.
Belenos the Bad nods.. ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, Lihan...please correct me if I am wrong about Tolkien's elves...
Rhûn Darkmoon listens with interest
AelKennyr Rhiano: We do know that Tolkien's elves are long lived. They do not die from disease, is that so?
Lihan Taifun: true
AelKennyr Rhiano: But they can be wounded. And from a grave enough wound, they can die. They do not age, per se?
Lihan Taifun: and one might think, the kind of wound that kills relatively quickly
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is one assumption, yes, and a good one. Lihan, if I may ask...are we to assume that is true of the elves who remain in Middle Earth?
Lihan Taifun: That seemed to still be true at the end of the Third Age
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now We all know here than D&D was developed decades after the publication of Tolkien's works. and the creators of D&D's handbooks and modules were well acquainted with Tolkien's worlds and the literary works of many other writers.
In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, elves are a fictional humanoid race that is one of the primary races available for play as player characters. Elves are renowned for their grace and mastery of magic and weapons such as the sword and bow. Becoming physically mature by the age of 25 and emotionally mature at around 125. They are also famously long-lived, capable of living more than half a millennium and remaining physically youthful. They rarely die due to the wear of age. Possessed of innate beauty and easy gracefulness, they are viewed as both wondrous and haughty by other races; however, their natural detachment is seen by some as introversion or xenophobia.
So...at a glance there is not THAT much difference between the elves of D&D and Tolkien's elves...
William Shrinshee: true.
AelKennyr Rhiano: We could debate the "long lived" part vs the supposed immortality of Tolkien's elves.
William Shrinshee: Fae and Dragons are said to be effectively immortal too in most fantasy writings unless killed in combat.
Lihan Taifun: that seems almost splitting hairs
AelKennyr Rhiano: It does, indeed. Please do not think, btw, that I am claiming that D&D is 100% compatible with Tolkien's world. But I think it is important to speak on the basis of facts and not interpretations.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
William Shrinshee nods as well.
Belenos the Bad: I agree.. facts are universal.. interpretations are not
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, with D&D's elves, in general, Elves also do not age as other creatures; their physical appearances remain constant from achieving physical maturity to death. Elves do grow physically weaker and mentally stronger as they grow older, and accumulate a "glow" from the strength of their souls as they age
That is a big difference from Tolkien's elves. Am I correct, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: that part is different. I hadn't heard of Tolkien's elves weakening with age
AelKennyr Rhiano: The main reason for that, as you can guess, lies in the fact that D&D is a roleplaying game and so you can see the detraction of having a character who can live indefinitely, growing in strength and knowledge without having some weakness.
William Shrinshee: absolutely, like World of Warcraft, balancing powers/strengths/weaknesses
AelKennyr Rhiano: When it was developed in the 1970s. they did not have internet games or SL. much less mmorgs
William Shrinshee: board game with dice yep
AelKennyr Rhiano: Virtural worlds were unknown.
William Shrinshee: the Internet was unknown and computers were a mere hobby (outside of businesses that is)
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...now, while there would many difference clans of elves in Tolkien, here is where D&D departs markedly from Tolkien. The different clans of elves are vastly different.
Lihan Taifun: D&D is older than hobby computers
AelKennyr Rhiano: There are numerous different subraces of elves, including aquatic elves, dark elves (Drow), grey elves, high elves, moon elves, rockseer elves, snow elves, sun elves, valley elves, wild elves (gruagach), wood elves, and winged elves (avariel). The offspring of humans and elves are known as "half-elves" among humans, and as "half-humans" among elves.
William Shrinshee: aquatic elves? interesting and odd. =)
Shawn Daysleeper: there seemed to be elves for every possible environment
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, indeed.
William Shrinshee: like dragons, for every environment
AelKennyr Rhiano: As the D&D world expanded and developed, more and more clans of elves were created.
William Shrinshee: and more races of dragons too
Lihan Taifun: they needed something new to sell the expansion packs :)
William Shrinshee: LOL so true
Belenos the Bad: so they basically began based on tolkien elves but then expanded into much more and much different types of elves?
William Shrinshee: It seems stranger elves when they had run out of ideas IMHO
AelKennyr Rhiano: Researching into the early days of D&D, there was the allegation made, then, that the creator of D&D did just that, Belenos. Of course, only the creator himself truly knows if that is true.
Belenos the Bad: it is not uncommon to be inspired by something one admires..
William Shrinshee: Many fantasy authors admit that Tolkien is their starting point now.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. yes, but that then, one did not readily admit to that. Mostly for fear of accusations of plagarism
William Shrinshee: copyright lawsuits
AelKennyr Rhiano: D&D had very humble beginnings, remember.
William Shrinshee: copyright has expired?
AelKennyr Rhiano: The first thing we need to look at before we can discuss the Avariel elves, is to note the difference in appearance between D&D elves and Tolkien elves.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So what were the differences in their appearance?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: thank you, Rhun.
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Please. I will stay on target because there was such misinformation last Wednesday night.
William Shrinshee: ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: So I apologize for not veering off very much. :)
William Shrinshee: np
Belenos the Bad: no, I agree entirely... please continue.. you are leading us on a logical thread
William Shrinshee: yes continue please :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: First, can someone describe for me Tolkien elves, their general appearance?
William Shrinshee: slender, tall, little body hair, somewhat delicate in appearance
AelKennyr Rhiano nods encouragingly.
William Shrinshee: (LOTR elves of course)
AelKennyr Rhiano: Anyone else?
Belenos the Bad nudges her grey matter.. I know that those of royal teleri background often had fair hair, while others were dark?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Belenos the Bad: did that apply to other races of elves also?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Tolkien, did not have a lot of variation in the appearances of his elves, did he, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: not really, only the hair color, that I know of
William Shrinshee: I can add magically attuned to nature, pointed ears and at least nearly immortal
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, we are talking appearances, not traits. That is important to note. Some people make the two the same thing, and they are not.
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...now in D&D....Slightly shorter than the average human, elves are also noticeably more slender and graceful (this is reflected in a bonus to Dexterity, and a Constitution penalty), handsome and beautiful averaging between 4½ to 5½ feet and 95 to 135 pounds. Males are slightly more muscular on average, there is little difference in height between the sexes, and neither sex grows facial, nor body hair. Their features in general may be described as more angular and defined; including long, pointed ears and wide, almond-shaped eyes. Most elves have fair skin and dark hair, though this is no more true of all elves than it is of humans. They have a reputation for careful grooming, more so than perhaps any other race. This frequently extends to their clothing, which is luxurious and well-kept, though not to the point of impracticality.
William Shrinshee: so other than height, it is pretty similar
Lihan Taifun: That gives more detail than Tolkien does. He never mentions skin color, eye shape, or pointy ears
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, I don't know if Tolkien thought we were meticuous groomers :P Elves with OCD! lol
William Shrinshee: LOL LOTR movies gives them the careful grooming typecast.
Belenos the Bad: I think you are right william.. the movies have a lot to answer for
William Shrinshee: LOL as in not perfectly accurate? I am sure.
AelKennyr Rhiano: D&D, by nature of its origins, had to further define elves...oh, yes...but that is probably the impact of games like D&D and stories and books that came after Tolkien's works.
Lihan Taifun: The movies make them all blond, too
Belenos the Bad looks over at a particularly scruffy elf she knows
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, except for one poor elf.
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes
William Shrinshee: the Director filled in details with other books; I agree with that. the demented elf Snegle
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is something we often overlook in our discussions.... the impact of culture. You cannot "unknow" a thing once exposed to it. And D&D is a part of the larger culture. It left an impact.
William Shrinshee thinks that is quite insightful.
Belenos the Bad: so once we have a modern concept of an elf in our heads we imagine tolkien's to be the same??
AelKennyr Rhiano: Even if you don't personally play it... it still has an impact...yes, exactly.
Rhûn Darkmoon is suddenly rather pleased he is a scruffy elf
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is why it is SO important to not assume you know but actually research before you start making statements like were made on Wednesday night.
Lihan Taifun: that makes a lot of sense
Belenos the Bad grins.. still not too big for me to give you a decent hair cut though you know.. :P
William Shrinshee: hehe Rhun does not want to conform to D&D hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now., let's continue on.
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien did say elves don't grow facial hair -- he didn't mention the other body hair
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles but keeps listening attentively
Shawn Daysleeper: not that I am aware. and some such as Cirdan did have beards
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now...D&D did not introduce a lot of the clans I mentioned earlier until the Forgotten Realms adventures were released. And in D&D, these clans are called "subraces."
They differ physically from typical Dungeons & Dragons elves in that they are as tall as humans (5' 9‚” on average), or even taller. The exception are the Drow, who are of standard D&D elven height. In Faerûn, surface elves call themselves Tel-Quessir which means "The People" in the elven language. In 4th edition, most of the elven subraces were classified as drow, eladrin or elves.
William Shrinshee has a topic for a future discussion that he will save for later.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, here is where we see D&D depart dramatically from anything remotely Tolkienesque. Let me recap what becomes the history of the elves at this point, please.
The history of the elven race is marked by great empires and a gradual decline and retreat from the mainland Faerûn. The elves first came to Abeir-Toril from the plane of Faerie about twenty-five millennia ago. The first wave of elves to arrive were the green elves, lythari, and avariel. The second wave included the dark elves, who arrived in the jungles of southern Faerûn, and the sun and moon elves, who arrived in the north. Not long after, the aquatic elves arrived in the Great Sea. After the second wave of elven immigrants arrived, the Time of Dragons ended and the period known as the First Flowering of the Fair Folk began. The elves settled into five major civilizations along the west and south of Faerûn during this period. Along the Sword Coast, the sun elves established Aryvandaar and Shantel Othreier, and the green elves established Illefarn, Miyeritar, and Keltormir. To the south, in present-day Vilhon Reach, the green elves also created the nations of Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, and Syópiir. In the forests that once covered the Shaar, the moon elves established Orishaar, and the dark elves established Ilythiir. All of these realms were gradually destroyed as a result of the Crown Wars, which made way for other elven realms.
Shawn Daysleeper listens
AelKennyr Rhiano: So we have a completely different mythos, and history.
Belenos the Bad: very
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now...it is clear that anyone claiming the Avariel elves are the Avari of Tolkien have either not read Tolkien or not played D&D.
William Shrinshee: yes Faerûn is NOT Arda at all.
AelKennyr Rhiano: The avariel are very rare in Faerûn, since they have been hunted nearly to extinction by various dragons. Avariel remain in any number in only one place ‚Äî the Aerie of the Snow Eagles, a secluded mountain home in the north. Avariel maintain good relationships with aarakocra, and those in the Aerie of the Snow Eagles have recently reestablished contact with their cousins in Evermeet. The avariel make their homes in open areas, and take immense joy in flying. They absolutely abhor and detest being inside, underground, or otherwise restricted from the open sky. The avariel are known for their fierce clerical tradition, as devout worshippers of the Seldarine sky goddess Aerdrie Faenya.
The closest any subrace of elves come to being the Avari....and this is a stretch would be the wild elves.
Wild Elves or Green Elves (Sy-Tel'Quessir)
The most reclusive of all the elves, the wild elves pride themselves on their isolation and skill at keeping hidden. Their skin tends to be brown and they have similar colored hair which lightens with age. In 4th edition, wild elves are elves.[16]
The case could be made that since the Avari were "unwilling" to travel to the West and be with other clans of elves...they became "reclusive."
William Shrinshee: Tolkien at least implies that some Avari were captured and bred to be orcs. by Melkor
Shawn Daysleeper: that is a bit of a stretch
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is....
Shawn Daysleeper: unwilling to reclusive
AelKennyr Rhiano: very, and admittedly so, Shawn. BTW...there is a subrace of elves in D&D called silver or mithral. Any comments or questions, thus far?
Shawn Daysleeper listens, wonders if there are chemical elves or periodic table elves...
AelKennyr Rhiano: Very close to it, Shawn:P
Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Shawn
Belenos the Bad: no.. it's all clarified things a lot, seeing as I do not play D&D
Lihan Taifun: The D&D "history" for their elves is totally different from Tolkien, which is not surprising
AelKennyr Rhiano: right
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, it is clearer, I am not familiar with D&D so this is helpful
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now....the question has been raised...SO.....how does a Tolkien based rp who CLAIMS to be fantasy inclusive justify allowing avariel elves into the rp... I would like to offer some thoughts on that.
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Now we get to the really interesting bit.'
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Belenos the Bad grins and agrees with Rhun.. for once
Shawn Daysleeper: I would like to hear your insights
AelKennyr Rhiano: First of all, if you are going to have a rp world that has a realistic touch...then you have to factor in evolution. Species evolve.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is not practical or credible that entires races survive millennium without changes.
Belenos the Bad: valid point
AelKennyr Rhiano: They have to constantly adapt over the course of time to their environment. So..in that context...if you looked at the middle earth of the 3rd Age, it must be different than the middle earth of the first age. And so should the races themselves change over time.
Belenos the Bad: you would think so
AelKennyr Rhiano: That change may not be markedly visible, but it is there and ensures the survival of the species. On the heels of that , you must consider environment. To pull a question to consider straight from Tolkien and our discussion of Tolkiens elves...is it logical to assume that the elves of Middle Earth are exactly the same as the Elves of Aman by the 4th Age? Remember the Elves of the West are living with the Valar, the Ainur
Belenos the Bad nods.... what is the difference in their lives and environment?
AelKennyr Rhiano: They live in an Eden, Belenos.
Belenos the Bad: ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: While the Elves of Middle Earth live in a mortal world of great change, in an environment where they have to assure their survival. All the struggles for survival we see in Tolkien, for the most part, where do they occur?
Belenos the Bad: middle earth isn't it?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. So, we who live in Aman, we do not have the same struggles, the same drives, the same imperatives as our kin in Middle Earth.
Belenos the Bad: hence why olwe is feeling the differences since moving alqualonde into middle earth?
AelKennyr Rhiano: As time goes on for the elves in the West, they can take longer to reproduce. Their clans do not have rapidly changing environments to adapt to, so evolutionary changes are slower to come.
yes, He is feeling the differences because they are there. In the world of Middle Earth, there is a struggle for survival that the Elves of the West do not have to address.
And that moves us into another consideration. In the need to survive...over time...wouldn't Elves as a race diversify. Would they not adapt to whatever environment in which they find themselves?
William Shrinshee: Yes
Shawn Daysleeper: yes I agree
Lihan Taifun: you would think
Belenos the Bad: especially if they were in different environments...
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would not over time, they develop those physical attributes, skills, talents,etc. that are needed to insure their race survives.
Rhûn Darkmoon tilts his head and thinks, 'Kinda like webbed feet if they lived in swampy areas?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, Rhun. So, now, considering all that...in total....could we make a case for a group of elves to develop the power of flight?
Belenos the Bad: flight, I would think is an interesting talent to choose to, or have to, develop. they'd have to grow wings
AelKennyr Rhiano: They would. and as nature does not tolerate imbalance...they would grow those wings as the expense of losing something.
Lihan Taifun: that certainly wouldn't be the easiest adaptation to develop
AelKennyr Rhiano: no, it would not
Belenos the Bad: it has literally happened in RL though so tis not impossible
AelKennyr Rhiano: Soo...one can imagine that part of the evolutionary price for growing wings is a vulnerability to predators
William Shrinshee: No thought of interbreeding here it seems.
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes...actually does anyone know the evolutionary origins of birds? Were they always able to fly?
William Shrinshee: It is considered to be modified hair. both birds and mammals are evolved from reptiles. modified scales are either hair or feathers.
Lihan Taifun: evolutionary origins of birds are still under debate. They don't have all the details of that yet
William Shrinshee:
Belenos the Bad: i think flight began with gliding.. skin folds became useful.. expanded.. hair into feathers.. that sort of thing
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes. Thank you, Belenos
Lihan Taifun: probably something like that, yes
William Shrinshee: That is what biology text books say anyway. I have a B.S. in biology. Birds still have scales on their feet. indicates connection to reptile ancestors
AelKennyr Rhiano: My point is that they had to develop it over time...and over the course of time...to gain the power of flight, there had to be evolutionary trade offs.
Lihan Taifun: time and tradeoffs, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Thoughts...comments? Now...to extend this. And relate it to rp...
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'They would have to have a credible reason to need to develop flight. What would that be?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: right, Rhun
Belenos the Bad: yes.. good point.. why would they need to?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That would have to be considered
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: More importantly...what did they lose to gain flight.
William Shrinshee: The stories I have read is that they interbred. with Fae or Dragons. That is why I mentioned orcs., that is forced interbreeding.
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Because I personally would not accept an Avariel elf with the physique of Aule.
Belenos the Bad: they would have to gain lightness in order to fly... hollow bones etc.. so perhaps they'd lose strength.. and certainly weight
AelKennyr Rhiano: William, I am going to challenge that until you produce documentation and apologize if that sounds offensive, but too much last week was presented as fact that was, at best, someone's ill researched opinion.
Lihan Taifun: an elf breeding with a dragon is hard on the imagination. in more ways than one
Belenos the Bad: actually william I think you will find that with tolkien it was not interbreeding.. but he created the orcs FROM elves...
William Shrinshee: page 50, paragraph 3, lines 4-9:
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were pu t there in prison and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of who they were afterwards the bitterest foes"
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is off the topic tonight, please.
Belenos the Bad nods nods nods.. I cannot think it would be a pleasing experience for either party Lihan.. not to mention the birth process
Belenos the Bad: ok.. so they evolved to fly... what did they lose in order to do so?
AelKennyr Rhiano: And again, I am keeping firmly on topic because of last week...so please do not take offense anyone.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, I am not taking offense
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Not at all.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, if they have lighter bones, they had to give up body density, right?
Belenos the Bad: yes.. I would think so, or have mighty wingspans like dragons
AelKennyr Rhiano: right. So...we would need to talk about muscular and skeletal differences over time, right?
William Shrinshee: true
AelKennyr Rhiano: And their wings, how tough would they need to be, and yet be flexible?
Belenos the Bad: would they be feathered or more likely membrane like bats?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right. So...would you expect brute strength out of an avariel elf?
Lihan Taifun: birds, at least, need very large, strong pec muscles, which affects the bone arrangement
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right, Lihan :)
Lihan Taifun: I suppose on an avariel, that might be shoulder muscles
AelKennyr Rhiano looks at William. So you guys would have manly chest...:P
William Shrinshee: :P
Rhûn Darkmoon mutters darkly, 'Not as manly as Aule's though.'
Shawn Daysleeper: lol at Rhun
Belenos the Bad: lol
AelKennyr Rhiano glances at Rhun and shakes his head.
Belenos the Bad: so the strength would go towards their flight ability, rather than strength in their arms or there rest of their body?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It would make sense. Upper body strength would be developed and devoted to flight.
Lihan Taifun: high center of gravity, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: Which means, like birds, on the ground, they would be less effective than in the air.
Belenos the Bad: yes!... any creature of flight is always ungainly on the ground
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right! But If I may, everyone overlooked two things. Those long elven ears...would the Avariel elves have kept them? Are they very practical for flight?
Belenos the Bad: maybe that's what their wings grew from?... :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg ROFL
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Belenos the Bad: :D
William Shrinshee: hehe
Lihan Taifun: bats have big ears
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
William Shrinshee: The bats that rely on echolocation instead of sight do
AelKennyr Rhiano: How are the ears oriented on the head? Thank you! Yes, William!
William Shrinshee: big biology fan =)
Lihan Taifun: ok, some bats :)
Belenos the Bad imagines huge elven ears fluttering in the wind of flight and the headache that would ensure
William Shrinshee: other bats that DO have sight have small ears
AelKennyr Rhiano: It could be that the Avariel elves, depending upon environment, keep those long ears and sacrifice acuity of sight.
William Shrinshee: (one prof. did his dissertation topic on bats and loved to talk about them)
Lihan Taifun: wow
AelKennyr Rhiano: What about vision? How would vision have changed?
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'But to fly, don't you need accuracy of sight to see distance and down to the ground? Are there any flight enabled creatures with poor eyesight, other than bats?'
Lihan Taifun: erm, chickens? but they aren't the best at flying
William Shrinshee: better vision and not as good at hearing
Belenos the Bad: yes, i'd say that's more likely willian
Belenos the Bad: erm.. william
William Shrinshee: some species of bats have excellent eye sight
AelKennyr Rhiano: Depends upon your definition of "poor" vision. Birds see much different than humans for example, right William?
William Shrinshee: not all bats live in caves and use echolocation
AelKennyr Rhiano: Correct.
William Shrinshee: yes they do. birds see much different
AelKennyr Rhiano: Can you elaborate please?
{Shawn leaves. Farewells.}
William Shrinshee: Eagles can see small amounts of movement in the water below so they can swoop down and eat them. "eagle eye" is genuinely superb eyesight beyond that of humans. not all birds are as good at sight as that but then they fly closer to the ground
Lihan Taifun: how is eagle hearing? or smell?
AelKennyr Rhiano: If you compare our eyesight against those of birds, in general, we have poor eyesight
William Shrinshee: yes. I have not read a lot about avian hearing but in watching bird behavior they are always looking around and do not seem to rely on it.
AelKennyr Rhiano: I do not know if this is so...but I have been told that the closer an animal is to the ground, the better their sense of hearing and smell is ....as a rule of thumb
William Shrinshee: land animals can be motionless until they hear a faint sound and then look around.
Belenos the Bad: yes I thnk you are generally right Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: Again, we do know about rules of thumb.
Belenos the Bad: those with good hearing usually have bigger ears too.
William Shrinshee: In general yes
Belenos the Bad: birds just have a hole in the head.. lol
William Shrinshee: LOL
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was why I asked about William's ears :P
Belenos the Bad: that's what the ear shape and dexterity is about.. so they can catch sound and move to track it
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right
William Shrinshee: an interesting fact about migratory birds is that they have a magnetic substance in their brain that detects the electromagnetic field of the earth
Belenos the Bad twitches her own ears and grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, does anyone remember a movie from the 1980s called "Flash"
Belenos the Bad: never heard of it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It was a remake of an old movie serial called Flash Gordon.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I'm not familiar with it.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ok
William Shrinshee: as in Flash Gordon maybe
Belenos the Bad: oh.. flash gorden i vaguely recall
William Shrinshee: otherwise no
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes! There is a race of bird men in the movie
William Shrinshee: ah yes, I remember them
AelKennyr Rhiano: Big, hairy, bulky, muscle bound men with wings
Belenos the Bad: ewwwww
AelKennyr Rhiano: lots of chest hair, I might add.
William Shrinshee: true
Belenos the Bad: double ewwww
AelKennyr Rhiano: and wings. Their heads looked a bit like eagles. That was their armour :P
{Mark arrives}
AelKennyr Rhiano: soo...any more thoughts...comments?
Belenos the Bad: where were you going with the reference to the flying men in Flash?
AelKennyr Rhiano: I was going to ask everyone, after all we have discussed, would we find that physical description very plausible?
Rhûn Darkmoon shakes his head, 'No, not at all.'
Belenos the Bad: yeah, I'm with Rhun... it's not ummm .. natural?
William Shrinshee: I think their wings would need to be much larger if they are going to be so huge.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
William Shrinshee: plus they were ugly
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Belenos the Bad: yes.. and that's a LOT of evolving for elves to do
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is!
William Shrinshee: Elves are not ugly thankfully.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Or that hairy!
Belenos the Bad looks at the scruffy elf in present company and ponders that
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Hey!'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Hey!
Mark: smiles sardonically
William Shrinshee grins.
Belenos the Bad crooks an eye at Ael.. wasn't referring to you
Lihan Taifun: heh heh, they didn't start out ugly ... but they might have become uglier over time, might they not?
Belenos the Bad: that's a valid point Lihan :D Belenos the Bad grins and pokes her tongue out at Rhun
AelKennyr Rhiano: EEEUUW no!
Mark: but how would a race become uglier over time, unless they were cursed?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ugly is not an evolutionary requirement!
Rhûn Darkmoon looks at the cat and mutters darkly
Lihan Taifun: they probably don't think of the changes as "ugly"
AelKennyr Rhiano: True, Lihan
Mark: hmmm . . . . I see
William Shrinshee: There is a subset of natural selection called sexual selection where otherwise adverse traits are amplified if the females of that species esp. like it. thus antlers that are way too big but get the buck attention
AelKennyr Rhiano: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Mark: but they are , essentially, ugly. Mark smiles. uglification of the race
Belenos the Bad: hehe.. there's just no accounting for some's taste
William Shrinshee: large antlers are bad from a natural selection point of view across species.
Mark: thank you all :)
{Several people have to leave.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, that is all I have for tonight.
Belenos the Bad: mmm.. perhaps we can continue this next week? .. I have a growing list of people demanding my attention at the moment..
AelKennyr Rhiano: And, really, I'm done :) Thanks everyone for being here tonight :)
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles shyly, 'I thought you mentioned a lot of relevent things that need to be considered about flying elves.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: I tried to give the discussion the attention it deserved.
Belenos the Bad: and yes, if we are to have flying elves, we really do need to sort out what they would be like.. their strengths and weaknesses
Lihan Taifun: yes, decide what they would be like
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think we laid the groundwork for some great discussion on that.
Belenos the Bad: will we continue on that though next week?
AelKennyr Rhiano: If you wish?
Lihan Taifun: that works for me
Belenos the Bad: I'd like it
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok :)
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I thnk it would be good and relevant.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: We can be a little less structured next week. I thought we needed to weed out the fact from the fiction.