Present:
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic)
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
Summary:
Morgoth 'created' the dragons, in a similar manner in which he created Orcs. No source says anything about what he used to create them. The Fourth Age assumption is that he created them originally by torturing and twisting Maiar - this accounts also for some of their somewhat mystical abilities.
Tolkien's dragons are capable of breeding on their own, and in later ages the Withered Heath is purportedly their spawning ground. We presume that two maiar in physical (in this case, dragon) form, could produce offspring.
Tolkien dragons have no shapeshifting abilities. So their powers are reduced from their Maiar ancestors. Possibly the “perversion” of their original being reduces their powers.
Maiar are vulnerable to having their physical bodies killed. If they are not strong enough to manifest a new physical body, they are left as nearly-powerless ghost-like spirits. So there is not a serious conflict between Maiar-based dragons and the fact that dragons can be killed, especially if their Maiar powers have been reduced.
Some dragons (Glaurung) walk on four legs, like Komodo dragons or other lizards. Other dragons (Ancalagon, Smaug) can both walk on four legs and fly using wings. Winged dragons are first witnessed during the War of Wrath, the battle that ended the First Age.
Dragons who can breathe fire were called Urulóki (singular Urulokë), "Fire-drakes".
There is also mention of “Cold-drakes”. Tolkien never specifies whether this means a dragon who can breathe ice and cold, or simply a non-fire dragon. (We will need to make a roleplaying decision on how to handle “cold-drakes”.) There is nothing in Tolkien comparable to “lightning breath”, “acid breath” or similar popular dragon powers.
Dragons have a love of treasure (especially gold), subtle intelligence, immense cunning, great physical strength, and a hypnotic power called "dragon-spell".
All Tolkien's dragons are minions of Morgoth. In Fellowship of the Fourth Age, Belanos has set up Ithilia as the leader of a group of dragons who escaped from Melkor and returned to (relative) goodness. This sets up a framework that can accommodate a wide variety of dragon back-stories.
“Dragon riders” do not occur in Tolkien, but we see no reason why a dragon and another person might not team up this way. However, their relationship would not be the same as described in books such as the Eragon series. They would not be able to mind read each other, nor would it be a lifetime bond. It would simply be two other warriors agreeing to fight side by side for safety and companionship. The rider probably gains more from this partnership than the dragon. How well would voice communication carry between dragon and rider, while flying?
The kinds of roleplayers who are attracted to dragon characters are often very individualistic and difficult to organize. Some have difficulty accepting limits to their character's abilities.
Belenos the Bad: ok.. it's past 7... looks like we are it today? shall I start?
AelKennyr Rhiano: please?
Lihan Taifun: our dragon expert :)
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Belenos the Bad: ok... now just to clarify.. you wanted information on dragons in the fourth age, yes?.... their origins and abilities and characteristics
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes....nods
Belenos the Bad: ok.. dragons. feel free to ask questions anywhere along the way, or correct me if i'm wrong on anything
Morgoth 'created' the dragons. As no one but Eru may actually create life, he cannot have created them from nothing. In a similar manner in which he created Orcs ("In the account published in The Silmarillion, Melkor had captured a number of Elves before the Valar attacked him, and he tortured and corrupted them, breeding the first Orcs.") he also created dragons (although probably not from elves).
Now.. according to http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dragons.. When he saw the strength of the Noldor in battle Melkor realised his orcs would not be enough to defeat them, so he bred a new race of 'monsters'... the dragons.
no source says anything about what he used to create them. The assumption is that he created them originally by torturing and twisting Maiar - this accounts also for some of their somewhat mystical abilities. The assumption being something we've discussed in the past
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Shawn Daysleeper listens
Belenos the Bad: The dragons were created by Morgoth during the First Age, when Glaurung, the first dragon, appears.
Belenos the Bad: So they appeared relatively early on...
Lihan Taifun: if Maiar breed with other Maiar, are the children Maiar?
Belenos the Bad: And a point we've often wondered at was clarified in my research. Tolkien's dragons are capable of breeding on their own, and in later ages the Withered Heath is purportedly their spawning ground.
well see, this is it.. from what I read if they are both in dragon form when they breed, they breed dragon
Lihan Taifun: the result is a "mortal" dragon?
Belenos the Bad: from the looks of it, they stay dragon.. and cannot switch forms like other Maiar may. now that is the interesting thing.. yes, we have to be mortal or at least killable.. for tolkien speaks of dragons dying, like Ancalagon the Black. immortal implies they cannot die, yes?
Lihan Taifun: well, a Maia who had lost shapeshifting ability, whose body was killed would be out of luck, like Sauron and Saruman, at the end of the Third Age
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Belenos the Bad: yes, exactly
AelKennyr Rhiano: So does this mean that Ainu can become "Mortal?"
Belenos the Bad: I would say logic says not the original Ainu.. but then maybe because Ancalagon was the first of the firedrakes that Morgoth made.. so one would assume he came directly from a maiar, and yet he was able to be killed. Perhaps there was something in the making of them that takes their immortality from them? but that is speculation.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully.
Lihan Taifun: or something in the perversion that limits their ability to re-build their body
Belenos the Bad: They were definitely able to be killed though. long lived, I'd say so.. but not unkillable. I would say also that the greatest and strongest were the orginals... for that would explain how it's spoken that none of the great dragons remain any more
Lihan Taifun: are dragons affected by old age? do they ever wear out?
Belenos the Bad: I think they would be.. but it would have to be very great age.. and I think their lifestyle usually means they meet death before old age. i'll get more into that later? when we talk about the setting we've put the dragons in for the role play, if that's ok?
Lihan Taifun: sure
Shawn Daysleeper: perhaps in turning evil they lost their immortality, like what happened to saruman
Shawn Daysleeper: ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok
Belenos the Bad: Perhaps that is so Shawn. Tolkien doens't explain. We simply know they WERE killable
Belenos the Bad: Tolkien designed his own classification system for dragons, based on locomotion and fire-breathing. So he was quite specific in how he envisioned them
Some dragons (Glaurung) walk on four legs, like Komodo dragons or other lizards. Other dragons (Ancalagon, Smaug) can both walk on four legs and fly using wings. Winged dragons are first witnessed during the War of Wrath, the battle that ended the First Age. So we see winged dragons in the first age.. they did not come late to the story
Dragons who can breathe fire were called Urulóki (singular Urulokë), "Fire-drakes". So he had dragons who could fly and breath fire. In Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien mentions a "Cold-drake".... it's assumed this was a dragon who could breath ice, I think
Lihan Taifun: it might refer to a non-fire dragon
Belenos the Bad: Although one source said, "It is commonly assumed, though not directly stated, that this term indicates a dragon which cannot breathe fire, rather than one who breathes ice or snow. ? so it's up to us really if we wish to have dragons who can breathe ice or snow... it's not forbidden but it's not specifically included either
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Belenos the Bad: are you all with me so far?
Shawn Daysleeper: yes Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Lihan Taifun: yes
Belenos the Bad: Ok.. there are other things known about his dragons too. The dragons also shared a love of treasure (especially gold), subtle intelligence, immense cunning, great physical strength, and a hypnotic power called "dragon-spell".
AelKennyr Rhiano: I remember that.
Belenos the Bad: The best way to talk to a dragon under the circumstances of this spell (when it was questioning you) was to not directly give it the information it wanted, as this would compromise you and your friends, but not to flat out deny it an answer, because this would anger it to violence. so they are not dumb animals by far. not mindless beasts
AelKennyr Rhiano: Could you not lie?
Belenos the Bad: umm.. a dragon or the one speaking with it? I believe under 'dragon spell' you cannot actually lie to them.. otherwise what is the use of it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: So under the dragon spell, you have to be very careful...
Lihan Taifun: if you were already under the spell, would you even have a choice what to say?
Belenos the Bad: So we have powerful winged creatures who can definitely breathe fire.. and maybe ice... intelligent, immensely cunning, greatly powerful and with the ability to do Dragon-Spell. and able to be killed. that is basically how Tolkien defined them...
Belenos the Bad: now in his stories they were lackeys of Morgoth.. but when we joined the role play in Arda originally, I created a scenario that allowed for dragons of peaceful intent. I established the possibility of 'good' dragons in the role play originally with Ithilia.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Could you go into that, Belenos?
Belenos the Bad: I'll just briefly summarise about that yes. Her character was a daughter of Ancalagon the Black. She was originally to be used for breeding purposes by Morgoth, but she, her mother, and 'several' other dragons rebelled and secretly escaped from Morgoth going into exile in far lands.
Our story did not specify how many accompanied Ithilia into exile. It did mention them scattering until finally Ithilia returned to Arda, being drawn back to her homelands. I set this up on purpose.. This premise allows for other dragons to build their own back history. If they are 'good' dragons then they can easily be either one of the original rebels or a descendant thereof. Having travelled to 'distant lands' their history can be quite diverse. many dragons who joined our role play back then had strong ideas of their heritage.. the setting I suggested allowed for that. It allowed for different personal histories
AelKennyr Rhiano: What happened to those dragons?
Belenos the Bad: the ones who scattered?
AelKennyr Rhiano: the ones who had strong ideas?
Belenos the Bad: oh they are still around a little.. but one thing I have discovered about dragons is that they are wandering creatures.. they come and stay a while but usually move on.. this is so in the role play and in those who come and live on our lands. a few stay.. but they seem to be generally restless, and also not inclined to organise themselves for role play.. it's ok if someone leads them, but once fox and I stood down they tended to drift away
AelKennyr Rhiano nods.
Belenos the Bad: or like me, get busy with other stuff.. *blushes* I love role play but do not have the time to devote to it, and because of their nature, few will seek it out without someone organising it for them. that's why I've been encouraging Ael to post some notifications about it in my group. Some may take and interest and join the Fourth age
AelKennyr Rhiano: What is the biggest challenge in providing dragon rp? Their nature?
Belenos the Bad: in truth.. their egos. so many seem inclined to think they are invincible.. clever, unstoppable. they do not see that they cannot in truth be like that, few can, anyways
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Belenos the Bad: I tried to give ithilia some weaknesses... she could sometimes feel the pull of the darkness that Morgoth instilled in them. she wasn't all pureness and light
Lihan Taifun: I can't imagine you playing an "all pureness and light" character
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, she was far from all sweetness and innocence. She was quite complex.
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) blows a raspberry at Ael. I could, if i really wanted to. I might strain something.. but I could.. :D
Shawn Daysleeper: lol
Belenos the Bad: I had to ask someone nicely for something just the other day and I did it. but I KNOW I strained something doing it :D
Lihan Taifun: :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Belenos the Bad: so, so far we have a pretty basic background from tolkien and a believable and inclusive back story for dragons in the Fourth Age role play. the thing that sort of inspired this talk today though is what I call outside influences.. things like D&D and the Eragon series of dragon books and others
AelKennyr Rhiano leans forward...listening carefully
Belenos the Bad: Dragon riders is a common concept. It is quite common in Second Life for folks to want to be or have dragon riders. As far as I know this was not a common thing in Tolkien but would not be impossible. It is not improbable that a trust may form between a dragon and another, whereby the dragon would concede to carry a person as a rider. However, their relationship would not be the same as described in books such as the Eragon series or D&D (if they have dragon riders in that?) They would not be able to mind read each other.. it would not be a lifetime bond .. it would simply be the same as two other warriors agreeing to fight side by side for safety and companionship
Also there are other things that are commonly accepted in SL that are not commonly tolkien. It is doubtful they would have weapons such as lightning breath or other breath weapons other than fire.
AelKennyr Rhiano: no, no ice breath?
Belenos the Bad: I think some talk about acid breath too
Lihan Taifun: what would a dragon gain from a rider?
Belenos the Bad: another pair of eyes and companionship
Lihan Taifun: ok
Belenos the Bad: perhaps someone to watch their tail.. in truth a rider would do little to protect a dragon especially when flying.. the art of spear throwing or archery is not the most accurate at the best of times.. let alone from the back of a flying dragon with all the wind turbulance around them. The big benefit of a dragon having a rider in the eragon books, for example, is that the rider could cast magic.. that could be very useful
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Belenos the Bad: but even if a dragon in tolkien had a rider who could cast magic, they would not have the mind bond that the riders do in the eragon books
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. So....in your opinion, it does not benefit the dragon greatly to have a rider?
Belenos the Bad: no.. only if it were a mage.... other than that a rider would only be with them for companionship
Belenos the Bad: so again, it's pretty clear.. the dragons are not invincible and able to outsmart and outfight anything..
AelKennyr Rhiano nods.
Lihan Taifun: would the rider have any practical way to even suggest a direction to fly?
Belenos the Bad: their personal communication would be limited to that of normal people... voice.. yeah.. he would say, 'go left', or go right, or down there, lol
unless a dragon conceded to a bridle.. which I would find VERY hard to believe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Unless he is a sailor, he could give, then, reference points.
Belenos the Bad: ahhh, but would the dragon be?.. :D go to starboard.. what? which way is that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was going to be my next question.
Belenos the Bad: lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: no.no I mean latitudes and longitudes. no port and starboard.
Belenos the Bad: normally I would imagine they would plan their journey .. via a map, or the stars
Lihan Taifun: I imagined it would be very windy and hard to hear, on dragon-back -- not that I have actually tried it
AelKennyr Rhiano: right
Belenos the Bad: yes lihan.. goggles you would think, would be a necesity
Lihan Taifun: but extra eyes only help if the two beings can communicate
Belenos the Bad: having ridden motorbikes and knowing what open face windspeed is like, I'd say the vision of the rider at fast travel would not be good, at slow speed flying that would be possible. but the benefit would mainly be to the rider.. rather than the dragon. he would have fast travel, a powerful companion
AelKennyr Rhiano: and all those bugs in your teeth!
Belenos the Bad: OMG yes. someone once tried to suggest a 'romantic' naked ride on the bike at night.. and I was like yeah right... bug splatter is NOT romantic.. LOL
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Belenos the Bad grins
Shawn Daysleeper: ugh lol
Belenos the Bad: so the dragon would not benefit nearly as much as the rider would..
AelKennyr Rhiano: Unless there was some sort of political alliance to the relationship.
Belenos the Bad: yes.. if there was some reason for the dragon to be grateful to the rider.. something the rider had done to earn its trust.. most of the time the question is in my mind of 'why'.. why would a dragon bother itself with a rider. not in the tolkien setting anyways. yeah, in the eragon books where there is some strange bond, that is different.. but that's not how tolkien wrote his dragons
AelKennyr Rhiano: or it seals an alliance between a group of dragons and a group of people.
Belenos the Bad: yes!
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien dragons don't strike me as the sort to go looking for bonding. they seemed rather solitary
Belenos the Bad: friendships could form between dragons and other beings... such as men or elves or even dwarves.. with the scenario I wrote for the 'scattered' dragons, there are quite a few possibilities if they wanted to use them. a single or pair of dragons wandering itno an area would not necessarily be viewed the same as the dragons would have been in middle earth.no one would know of their dark past, being isolated from their homeland or their own kind they might well form a friendship/alliance with some group or individuals
remember, they are highly intelligent beings.. and the notion of them being solitary is not really backed up by tolkien.. the solitary dragon image is more in popular culture
AelKennyr Rhiano: No, I think we get that because of what we see in the Hobbit? And then of other literary traditions.
Belenos the Bad: yes.. so the option is there for one or the other.. solitary and liking it like that.. or non-solitary intelligent being who likes equally intelligent company. Belenos the Bad whispers: or of course, dark and evil still.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...lawrence may, indeed, be grateful enough to form a bond with Olwe, if Olwe saw that he was cared for..
AelKennyr Rhiano: but it would not be mystical, it would simply be friendship
Belenos the Bad: yes, friendship only. not the sort of thing I believe he was suggesting. certainly not a lifetime bond or obligation
...
{BelenosStormchaser Magic gave you dragons in the fourth age.}
Belenos the Bad: That's the notecard with the info on it
Shawn Daysleeper: thank you Bel
AelKennyr Rhiano: thank you :)
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Belenos the Bad: I would be daring enough to say any dragon joining our role play should base their character within those guidelines. it will save a lot of misunderstandings and disappointments I think
AelKennyr Rhiano: What about dragons shapeshifting?
Belenos the Bad: I actually covered that right at the bottom of the notecard. Although originating from Maiar, once they are descended dragon from dragon, it is doubtful they would be able to change from their dragon form to another. The ONLY ones who might be able to do this would be one of the original dragons who escaped from Morgoth. Even Ithilia herself cannot because both her parents were dragons.
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...you would suggest that in the rp we do not permit dragons to shapeshift?
Belenos the Bad: it is pretty clear in tolkiens descriptions of the dragons that they did NOT shape shift.. nor did they retain the abilities of whatever being they were created from. He defined their abilities quite clearly.
Belenos the Bad: so I'd say no.. no shapeshifting
Lihan Taifun: but you mention biped dragons
Belenos the Bad: and if a dragon were to approach you and say mommy was a dragon but daddy was a shape shifter, I'd say well, it might have happened somehow between the dragon and donkey in shrek but in reality? No.. lol.. it's just not going to happen
AelKennyr Rhiano: LOL
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Belenos the Bad: Yes.. if one were a biped dragon it's possible just slightly possible that they might exist.. but hard to explain.. dragons are dragons.. usually quads.. some winged, some not
{Conversation moves to an Elder-level discussion of Fourth-Age policies on shapeshifting, and on mages.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: Which race for next time, please? any imputs?
Belenos the Bad: well, as we have a current mer wanting into the role play perhaps we should discuss them? so perhaps you find out what you can in tolkien and we'll toss around how we can blend popular mer notions with that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: that sounds great
Lihan Taifun: good