Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Shawn Daysleeper
Summary:
To accept a species not in Tolkien's world, their existence would need to be "creditable" and also not a conflict with his world. Yes, this is fantasy, but it still needs to make sense.
Tolkien's (and any good author's) creatures are all suited to their environments. So any new race to be added should be able to explain why their special characteristics developed in response to their environment. “Nature does spawn diversity...but that diversity always has a purpose.”
For example, why would flying be a valuable survival skill for elves? Were there predators on the ground they needed to escape? Did they live in tree-tops or mountain tops, where flying was the best means of transportation?
Modern humans respond to survival pressures with technology, which is much faster than biological evolution. (Humans with imperfect vision wear glasses.) Why did these elves not build themselves something? Did they lose their technology? (How? What happened to their civilization?) Did they never develop technology? (Why not?) Or are their wings actually mechanical after all?
What did they give up when they developed the ability to fly? Every change involves tradeoffs.
This is very much like “creating a backstory” for the race. A person proposing a non-Tolkien race for the roleplay should be prepared to explain how this race is believable in the Tolkien universe.
Tolkien's Avari elves were those who did not even attempt to relocate to Aman, the Blessed Lands. The elves who did relocate believed that some of the Avari were captured by Melkor and turned into Orcs. Most of the Avari just drop out of the story. Some may have mixed with the Green Elves. Possibly the first Humans encountered Avari, but very little is known of the Humans' earliest times. Tolkien is only telling the story of one corner of one continent of the world. We have no information on what was happening elsewhere.
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...about last week...any comments, or thoughts or questions?
Lihan Taifun: I think it makes sense to talk about whether or not a non-Tolkien being would be a *plausible* development
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'We were talking about how an elf would develop the ability to fly, yes? Did we come to any conclusions on that?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: No, we did not, Rhun. I was really hoping William would be here...I was going to ask his permission to be our flying 'guinea pig" and have us discuss what an avariel elf would look like. Like all species, we could assume that there would have had to be a very special reason for the development of wings. Perhaps it is a response to preserve the species against a predator
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Then perhaps in his absence we could talk about the issue the Most Beautiful Lady Lihan has raised?'
Lihan Taifun: yes, some reason why flying was a very valuable survival skill
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think the two are tied, in a way. Because, would you not say that most of the beings in Tolkien's world are suited for their environment?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I would say they were suited for the environment they'd been in up until that time, yes.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: So, to accept a species not in Tolkien's world their existence would need to be "creditable" and also not a conflict with his world.
Lihan Taifun: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: so what would their environment be so that they needed to fly?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is a great question? Don't you all think so?
Lihan Taifun: they lived in treetops or mountain tops, and flying was a good means of transportation?
AelKennyr Rhiano: not only a good means, but the best means. else why bother with the adaptation.
Lihan Taifun: or, as Ael suggested, there were predators who couldn't jump very high
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Treetops would work, I think. It could have begun as leaping and then gliding, perhaps?'
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Shawn Daysleeper: ok, I was curious
AelKennyr Rhiano: It was a great question. I am glad you asked it.
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Lihan Taifun: hee, I can kinda picture elves jumping from tree to tree, like flying squirrels
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Or tarzan?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: And we have to remember something, too...species do not just evole...they can also devolve
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks of elves in loinclothes and grins
Lihan Taifun: lol
AelKennyr Rhiano beats his chest and does the tarzan cry
Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Ael, 'No loincloth?'
Shawn Daysleeper: ooo hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Shawn Daysleeper: lol
Lihan Taifun: and also, what real humans would do -- or I suppose elves -- is build themselves something to assist them, which would be so much faster than biological evolution
AelKennyr Rhiano: right, and we do know elves were technologically more advanced than the humans.
Lihan Taifun: like ... humans wear glasses
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES! Lihan hit the point extremely well.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Nature does spawn diversity...but that diversity always has a purpose.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'If that is the case, then why not use their technology to fly, rather than grow their own wings?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Bingo! Kudos, all of you!
Lihan Taifun: right, Rhun, that would be a very relevant question. maybe avariel have no technological skills? or no suitable raw materials?
AelKennyr Rhiano: To make the existence of avariel elves plausible at all, all this has to be considered. Now, about this time, someone would argue.."This is fantasy. It doesn't have to be real. And they are right. It doesn't. But it should make sense. It should be plausible on some level."
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'It doesn't have to be real, but believable?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod And yes, Lihan. What if they survived the destruction of their civilization? All their society's knowledge lost? So. we could give them a credible and believable background.
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'So their civilisation would have had to be destroyed early to allow sufficient time for the evolution of flight?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Lihan Taifun: if they live in trees, they wouldn't be metal workers -- that requires fire, which is not compatible with trees
AelKennyr Rhiano: right again. And there is something people overlook when they are criticizing D&D and stating it is not compatible with Tolkien. It is a game.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods and listens
Lihan Taifun: maybe their "culture" was more like the Vanyar --- mostly song and story, rather than technology
AelKennyr Rhiano: and they could be descendants of Vanyar who, for some reason, left Aman. experienced some cataclysmic event.
Lihan Taifun: or descendants of relatives of the Vanyar who never went to Aman?
AelKennyr Rhiano: or that, too
Lihan Taifun: found some really comfy trees that provided food and shelter, and their major survival stress was that it wasn't safe to come down to the ground
AelKennyr Rhiano: and so they adapted.
Lihan Taifun: "go" down to the ground, they would say
AelKennyr Rhiano: Go down meant death
Lihan Taifun: predators that weren't good at climbing trees
Shawn Daysleeper: it could be their home was in one of the more hostile areas of the world, such as near the realm of a strong ally of Melkor
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: yes, could be!
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Good thought, Shawn'
Shawn Daysleeper: there is a lot of mythos of a strong evil servant of Melkor in the south, the land of the Mumakeem
AelKennyr Rhiano: oooh...good thought! so...now that we have discussed this, and looked a little closer....Are avariel elves incompatible with Tolkien's world?
Lihan Taifun: if the weather is mild, there would be less motivation to develop technology
Shawn Daysleeper: there are a lot of wild corners of the world that are not described
Lihan Taifun: oh yes, we only hear about one corner of one continent
Rhûn Darkmoon: I would say not incompatible, really, in view of what you've all put forward?'
Shawn Daysleeper: I would say they are compatible
Lihan Taifun: at least "flying elves" could be compatible. We don't have William to ask if there are any other essential qualities of "Avariel" that make them "Avariel"
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now I submit, what you don't want is a lot of wild, unfounded speculations without actually researching the race.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods in agreement, 'The race would have to have a suitable history defined, yes?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, the one that posits this race has some homework hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: And they should have to make the arguement for inclusion of their race.
Lihan Taifun: history, and culture and physical description
AelKennyr Rhiano: They should know their race well enough to do that.
AelKennyr Rhiano: And, with apologies to Will, he definitely did not.
Lihan Taifun: at least not yet
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right, and to his credit, he was willing to listen to others and to learn
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'yes, he was'
Lihan Taifun: yes, that is a good sign
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, it is. And we learned a lot from the whole discussion. And we learned to distinguish the Avariel elves of D&D tradition from the Avari of Tolkien.
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: The Avari were those of the Noldor and Teleri who refused to go West. They were after known in Quenya by the name Avari because they refused the summons
Lihan Taifun: were not the Avari ALL the elves who refused to go to the West?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, ma'am. But I didn't think there were any Vanyar amongst them. Were they?
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'I.. I confess I am unfamiliar with the Avari. Would you mind sharing a little of what you know about them, my Lady, for this ignorant elf's benefit?'
Lihan Taifun: I don't think any Vanyar. Though there might well be clans whose names we don't know
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: You recall that the Valar invited all the Elves to relocate to Aman, for safety? Shortly after the elves first awakened
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
Lihan Taifun: The followers of Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe decided to accept the offer. Other groups of elves decided not to. Partly because Melkor had been spreading scary stories about the Vala Orome, and his giant horse, and partly because the description of the Two Trees didn't motivate them so much
AelKennyr Rhiano: Little is known of them, as they do not appear often in the tales. Some of them merged with the Nandor and Sindar in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin and became known as Silvan Elves, right?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods and leans forward, listening with interest
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Please, Lihan, please continue.
Lihan Taifun: right, they drop out of the story at the point where they decide to not move to Aman. Some of them may have been captured and turned into orcs -- at least the other elves suspect so
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: the Nandor and Sindar are at least mostly descended from Teleri who started the trip but didn't finish, but there may be some Avari mixed in. and ... we only hear what happens in that one corner of one continent. We really don't know what happened elsewhere in the world
AelKennyr Rhiano: And the Avari...were they the first elves humans encountered?
Lihan Taifun: So little is known about Humans early days ... but what you say is possible
AelKennyr Rhiano: I wondered...It could be possible they were. Wiki...which is not the end all and be all of all sources...says: The Avari were the first other sapient race encountered by the Men. The Avari taught them many of the basic crafts of civilization, though the craft of the Eldar surpassed that of the Avari even more than that of the Avari surpassed primitive Men.
Shawn Daysleeper: there could have been other tribes of humans that encountered the winged Avari, that were not mentioned or lived in Beleriand
Lihan Taifun: there could be a lot of things, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: But that is it. We never got a description of the Avari as winged, did we? Just 'wild.'
Shawn Daysleeper: maybe not all Avari were winged?
Lihan Taifun: if you had only stories about the history of the British Isles, you would never know about kangaroos
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right, Lihan
Shawn Daysleeper: just some evolved the wings because of the area environment they lived in?
Lihan Taifun: that sounds much more likely, Shawn
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, I will tell you what I wondered, and I was curious why no one ever suggested it... Maybe neither the Avari nor the Avariel elves evolved wings at all. They built them. Technology, remember? Maybe those wings are manufactured, not biological.
Lihan Taifun: ohhhh, that would be a totally different interpretation!
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wouldn't it, Lihan?
Rhûn Darkmoon blinks and thinks, 'But, how would they control them? '
AelKennyr Rhiano: How, indeed? But then again...how did the art of using sails evolve?
Lihan Taifun: so you could work out a different system, based on that
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, I think so. It would be in keeping with Tolkien's world.
Lihan Taifun: yes, there would be possibilities doing it that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...please, let me ask what you all would like to discuss next week?
Lihan Taifun: are we working our way through various races?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes :)
Lihan Taifun: I have my collection of circumstantial evidence about dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, dwarves! please
Rhûn Darkmoon beams, 'Yes, Dwaves!'
AelKennyr Rhiano: That would be awesome.
Shawn Daysleeper: dwarves would be fun
AelKennyr Rhiano: Sooo... next week dwarves :)