Present:
Zakar Zamin
Lihan Taifun
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
Why did Eru create two similar 'humanoid' races – Elves and Humans? Tolkien thought of “Middle-earth” as our own world in an earlier time, and his writing as providing a “mythology” for the English people. The Elves were intended to help and teach the Humans, until the Humans were ready to take over the running of Middle-Earth. This plan was derailed by the Valar evacuating the Elves to the Blessed Lands, leaving the Humans to fend for themselves. The young race of Humans promptly fell under Morgoth's influence.
The Valar knew that Humans would arrive, and had a rough idea of the time frame. But there is no evidence of the Valar doing anything to look for or help the young Humans. This seems to us negligent, even by Valar standards. The Valar were not terribly good at running the world.
The concept of “adolescent” as a distinct life stage, between “child” and “adult” depends strongly on the culture. In some cultures, especially less-wealthy ones, a person graduates directly from “child” to “adult”.
The Númenorean Humans were given long life as part of their reward from the Valar. The royal house of Númenor, having some elvish and ainur in their ancestry, had especially long lives. By the Third Age, this Númenorean ancestry was getting diluted. Aragorn only lived to 210.
Ainur are difficult to roleplay, to make them “familiar” enough for readers to relate to, but non-human enough to be distinctive. We will discuss “Ainur bodies” at next Tolkien Discussion Group.
Links mentioned:
Lihan Taifun: hello
Zakar Zamin: Greetings
Lihan Taifun: you are here to discuss humans?
Zakar Zamin: Being one, it caught my interest
Lihan Taifun: ah, a human? indeed? come in, make yourself comfortable
Zakar Zamin: thankyou
Belenos: Hello Zaker.. a new face I believe?
Lihan Taifun: yes, we have a human here today!
Zakar Zamin: The topic intrigued me.
Lihan Taifun: though you might be able to explain the human viewpoint?
Zakar Zamin: perhapse, I can explain my viewpoint well enough.
{Several “regulars” have been delayed by Real Life.}
Belenos grins.. perhaps, but we do have our resident tolkien expert with us still.. *looks at Lihan*... so she might be able to share some information with us 'ad lib' so to speak?... or we could all just play hookey .. :)
Lihan Taifun frowns. Play hookey when we have a guest?
Zakar Zamin: Well, I'd like to think that I'm a little more than familiar with his works.
Lihan Taifun: oh, and a knowledgable guest, at that!
Belenos: ohh.. this is even better.. I am but a noob really when it comes to Tolkien, so I'd be most interested in listening to you both.. :)
Lihan Taifun: ok then! does anyone (meaning Belanos) remember anything from the previous week when Humans were discussed?
Zakar Zamin: Well, we'll see how much I can dredge up out of my memory.
Lihan Taifun: I wasn't here, and apparently no one saved a transcript
Belenos: erm.. I know I asked a question at the end that we decided to talk about this week.. but i'll be blowed if I can remember what it was now..however, if you give me a couple of minutes I can find the log I expect..
Zakar Zamin mumbles, "Does no one save their logs?"
Belenos: yes I keep the logs
Zakar Zamin grins
Lihan Taifun: I do, but I wasn't here
Zakar Zamin: Then you're excused, Lihan. „ã°
Belenos grins
Lihan Taifun: so, we once knew something about Humans ... were we discussing the history of Humans, or how to play them?
Zakar Zamin: We are a hard, and diverse, target to pin down.
Lihan Taifun: yes, quite a wide cultural range
Belenos: aha! 'what was the purpose of creating man when there were already elves'.. :D
Zakar Zamin: Ask Eru
Lihan Taifun: but they were always thought of as a pair, from the beginning
Zakar Zamin: Despite the years between awakenings?
Lihan Taifun: from the time of the Great Song, I meant
Belenos: thought of as a pair?.. elves and humans?
Lihan Taifun: the Humans were always in the plan
Zakar Zamin: Oh, ok
Belenos: well see, that's why i asked the purpose..why make the two similar but different types of beings?
Zakar Zamin: different purpose or function?
Lihan Taifun: I have to agree with Zakar on that one -- Eru never explained
Belenos: ok..
Lihan Taifun: though in later years, Tolkien speculated that it had to do with their different relationships to time. I don't think I could explain what he was saying, even if I remembered it all
Belenos: umm.. how is that different between them?.. how long they live?
Lihan Taifun: but between the two, they might, theoretically, have lifted Arda Restored out of time into immortality; something about how the Elves "last as long as Arda", but that means they will cease to exist when Arda comes to an end
Zakar Zamin: From an OOC perspective, if that is helpful, Men need to be accounted for because the world is currently inhabited by them.
Lihan Taifun: unless the Humans do (or would have done) ... something I don't rememberer
Zakar Zamin: I don't believe Elves will cease when Arda ends
Belenos: so you think Tolkien always intended to imply that the world he wrote about was our earth in another time?
Lihan Taifun: I think he did
Zakar Zamin: In a sense, yes
Belenos: ok, so then.. what else about humans?
Zakar Zamin: He was creating an English mythology, because (as I recall) it had been lost due to frequent invasions. This may prove useful: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Men
Belenos: like how a language and culture can be lost through invasions?
Zakar Zamin: Yes I think I heard that in one of the documentaries on him that I watched
Belenos: so if they were destined to inherit and rule middle earth why were they born last?
Lihan Taifun: The elves were intended to be their teachers, though that plan got messed up when the Valar evacuated the Elves to Aman, so the Humans ended up having to fend for themselves
Belenos: oh really?.. I didn't know that
Zakar Zamin: There are some "why" questions that are beyond our ken
Belenos grins.. sorry about that.. it's my eternal question.. :)
Lihan Taifun: and it is strongly hinted that the Humans fell under Morgoth's influence almost immediately
Belenos: oh really?
Zakar Zamin: Which would not be a happy day
Lihan Taifun: no, not happy at all
Belenos: the implication then is they were weaker willed than the elves? or more readily corrupted?
Zakar Zamin: This accounts for our difficulty in doing the right thing... early poisoning.
Lihan Taifun: or abandoned by both the elves and the Valar
Zakar Zamin: If the Valar had found us first, who could say what we would have become. Or what if Morgoth had found the Elves first?
Lihan Taifun: but the funny thing is that the Valar weren't even bothering to look
Belenos: I was going to say what's this about finding us? Didn't they know humans were coming? What were they doing at the time?
Zakar Zamin: Playing with the Elves
Lihan Taifun: they did know the Humans were coming -- yes, what Zakar said, so busy with the elves, and not paying attention to Middle Earth
Lihan Taifun: people forget that the Valar didn't do a terribly great job
Belenos: and that notion enthralls me.. to think that not one of the valar had time to worry about the humans... Belenos grins.. i wasn't quite going to put it like that.. but yes.. :) so if they helped with creation itself why did they do such a lousy job of looking after it?
Lihan Taifun: *I* can say that
Zakar Zamin: When the Elves awoke, they were found by Oromë, as I recall, and they were invited to the Undying lands to live with the Valar.
Lihan Taifun: for one thing, it was all on-the-job training
Belenos: and as we're seeing with Nienna, there was much about mortal life they didn't understand, yes?
Lihan Taifun: nothing any of the Ainur did, before creation, was any help in how to run a world, or parent races
Zakar Zamin: I would think, being limited (like the rest of us) the Elves were a handful and a focus of their attention
Lihan Taifun: yes, I think the Valar really didn't understand the Children
Belenos: heh.. elves are ALWAYS a handful.. :D
Lihan Taifun: the Valar were in the position of parents to the Elves, but what do Ainur know about family relationships?
Belenos: exactly!
Zakar Zamin: Well, they do have a dysfunctional "brother"
Lihan Taifun: heh heh
Belenos: so parents or teachers?... similar but different roles
Lihan Taifun: or teachers, yes
Zakar Zamin: I would think more teachers & mentors
Belenos: well, they failed at teaching really too.. which is surprising for the amount of time they had to learn how to do it with the elves before humans arrived
Lihan Taifun: hmmm, and parents aren't?
Belenos: parents have more of an emotional involvement don't they? as well as the teaching side of it
Lihan Taifun: ok, good point. So the Valar overprotected the Elves, resulting in the Noldor stomping off. And then left the Humans alone, resulting in them falling under bad influences
Belenos: lol
Zakar Zamin: Well, one thing to keep in mind. There is a difference between Valar & Elves. It's not the same as adopting a child of your own race
Belenos: well yes.. lots of differences really. but how long was an age?.. i mean the elves were around for two, three? ages before men arrived?
Zakar Zamin: I think an age was marked by a changing event and long a length of time
Lihan Taifun: yes, First Age was only -- what? -- 600 years?
Zakar Zamin: I don't remember the lengths http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/First_Age But the wiki might
Belenos: hehe.. so the valar were like parents running around wiping the snotty noses of their toddler elves and forgot to change the nappies on their newborn baby called man?
Zakar Zamin: (I like this website)
Belenos: excuse me a moment.. afk
Zakar Zamin: Well, the Valar did delight with the coming of the elves
Lihan Taifun: they were really excited about it. then for some reason not so excited about the Humans
Zakar Zamin: Well, after dealing with the Elves, can you blame them? :D
Belenos: lol
Lihan Taifun: Elves weren't as cute and fun to play with as they expected?
Belenos: i mean, can you imagine what they looked like as babies?.. those ears and all. and imagine them as teenagers?
Zakar Zamin: lol How long is elven adolescence?
Belenos: oh gods knows.. compared to human though it would be much longer, yes?
Lihan Taifun: they often marry by the age of 100, which doesn't explain why Arwen was still single at 2400
Zakar Zamin: Hard to say... human adolescence varies by cultures... many don't even have it. Going strait from child to adult
Belenos: pardon? are we talking about tolkien cultures here or RL cultures?.. sorry... you just lost me
Zakar Zamin: Both. The only culture where adolescence is described would be Hobits
Belenos: ok.. umm.. isn't that rather physically impossible ?... bodies take years to mature from child to adult.. a girl doesn't go from flat chested overnight to barbie proportions... or are you talking about behaviour rather than physical development?
Zakar Zamin: More social status
Lihan Taifun: I thought he was talking about cultural categories
Belenos: ok.. sorry if I'm slow today.. was up most of the night ... and not enough coffee in the system yet for the brain to function
Lihan Taifun: yes, one goes from "not old enough to be a legal adult" to "legal adult"; often, for girls, that means "not old enough to marry" to "married"
Belenos: so one is considered a child until one is considered an adult.. ok..
Zakar Zamin: This is a bit OOC: It is in modern, western cultures where we have a period of adolescence... which is getting longer and longer, currently extending into the 20s
Lihan Taifun: but this is an OOC discussion, so you can say that ;)
Belenos: yes.. *smiles* this sim isn't 24/7 Rp sim, Zaker... :)
Zakar Zamin: ok... I wasn't sure. For an example, watch the movie "Master and Commander". I learned something new.
Belenos: well the thing is though, adolescence is getting longer because our lifespan is increasing. in the era of Master and Commander our lifespan was considerably shorter..
Zakar Zamin: It wasn't that much shorter. Anyway, in the movie, one of the characters is somewhere around 14
Belenos: pardon?
Lihan Taifun: so one of the characters was 14 .... ?
Belenos: yes.. it was quite common for young boys to go to sea back then; or go into any trade really... childhood itself was not terribly long lasting. everyone in a family (unless it was wealthy) had to pull their weight to support at least themselves if not the family
Zakar Zamin: Exactly, and even if we consider lifespan to be half of current - which would've be around 40 - adolescence going from non-existence to 4 to 10+ years. adolescence becomes a societal function allowed by wealth. We, as a society, can afford to let our kids "goof off" until their 20s
Belenos: still, the humans of tolkien's time were considerably longer lived even than we are today, yes?
Lihan Taifun: at least the Numenoreans were
Belenos: they don't say anything about the other races of man?
Zakar Zamin: Just the Numenorians... there were other races that were shorter
Belenos: so why were the numenorians longer lived?
Lihan Taifun: the island of Numenor was a gift from the Valar to the Humans who had fought on the good side in the wars with Morgoth
Zakar Zamin: They were noble and brought to an island just in sight of the undying lands where the Valar (and elves) live
Lihan Taifun: the relatively small fraction of Humans who chose the good side
Zakar Zamin: over the centuries, their lifespan lengthened
Lihan Taifun: and part of the gift was a long lifespan
Zakar Zamin: I thought it was due to their proximity to Valenor
Lihan Taifun: and the royal house was descended from Elros, who was half-elven but chose the Human half, so he and his descendants had an especially long life, even by Numenorean standards
Belenos nods, ok.....
Lihan Taifun: that bloodline was getting diluted, by Third Age. I don't think Aragorn lived much past 200
Belenos: still, that's a worthy lifespan
Zakar Zamin: 210
Lihan Taifun: I was close
Zakar Zamin: according to Tolkien gateway
{Belanos is interrupted by phone.}
Lihan Taifun: pretty soon we will get to how to role-play humans. so you can be thinking about that. I'm not sure whether Fourth Age has any humans right now
Zakar Zamin: Which is odd, because the Elves were leaving middle at the end of the 3rd
Lihan Taifun: yes, so there is plenty of room for humans. but I'm not thinking of anyone with a human character
Zakar Zamin: Should be... unless you want to pattern yourself as holdouts
Lihan Taifun: oh no, we are trying to adapt and keep up with the world
Zakar Zamin: So, what races do you represent?
Lihan Taifun: me and Belanos? or all of Fellowship of the Fourth Age?
Zakar Zamin: all, or at least the most active
Lihan Taifun: we are open to any Tolkien races, and fantasy races that are compatible with the Tolkien universe
Zakar Zamin: Teleri, Noldar??
Lihan Taifun: yes, we have a lot of elves, and some Ainur, a couple of dragons, a dwarf, a balrog
Zakar Zamin: I was thinking specifically of the Elves
Lihan Taifun: the elves of Alqualonde are Teleri, of course. the elves of Sylvhara are a mixed lot
Zakar Zamin: I don't think I could play one of the Ainur; Somehow, that seems out of bounds
Lihan Taifun: playing the ainur is hard
Zakar Zamin: I can imagine... and that is the best I can do, RPing a being who's existence is out of this world, or other-worldly
Lihan Taifun: yes, as well as the issues of playing a very powerful being.we have a couple of Ainur in disguise in the mortal world
Zakar Zamin: Playing a powerful being isn't that hard... it is the 'different' thinking that is challenging
Lihan Taifun: I agree, it is challenging. playing a powerful being without stomping all over everyone else's roleplay is a challenge
Zakar Zamin: Well, yes. Any Istari?
Lihan Taifun: the Istari's commission ened at the end of the Third Age, so I'm not even sure what it would mean to be an Istar in the Fourth Age
Zakar Zamin: I should have said maiar. The Istari were chosen from them
Lihan Taifun: yes, we have Maiar! Eonwe, Ilmare, Tillion, Arien, a couple of wind-Maiar of Manwe's
That is from the archives -- a conversation between Manwe and Eonwe. You would have to read the whole story to understand what is going on between Eonwe and Aule; suffice it to say they argued
Zakar Zamin: The first sentence brings a question to mind: do spirits who cloth themselves with a physical form need to remember to make sweat?
Lihan Taifun smiles. That is a very relevant question. I suspect some ainur do a more detailed job than others
Belenos: I'd say that if they use a physical form then it depends on if it's simply an illusion or a literal mortal body
Zakar Zamin: And if they do, do their "bodies" actually need to sweat?
Lihan Taifun: I play Nienna. Nienna has just been upgrading her physical experiences
Belenos: if it's a literal mortal body then one would assume their bodies behave as most mortal bodies to and regulate themselves.. there is no need to remember to sweat any more than there is a need to remember to breath..
Lihan Taifun: again, that depends on whether they are just creating the illusion of a body, or an actually, biochemically complete version'
Zakar Zamin: There was an article I read dealing with the relation between the body & spirit
Lihan Taifun: it is actually the sort of thing that is important in Nienna's current storyline
Belenos: and having piped up with my two second's worth of remarks, now I must make a call to deal with the call I just received.. sorry folks.. RL is being a right pain today
Lihan Taifun: oh dear, if you must, you must
Zakar Zamin: RL takes precedence
Lihan Taifun: the relationship between body and spirit, you were saying
Zakar Zamin: Lihan, if you are interested, here is the article: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fea_and_hroa
Zakar Zamin: This may be more relevant, but not as informative: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ealar
Lihan Taifun: ah, right, fëar and hroar -- doesn't get into the fanar of ainur
Zakar Zamin: Ealar
Lihan Taifun: "fana" is relevant, too -- is there an entry for fana? -- apparently not
Zakar Zamin: doesn't come up in a search. I think fana & flora, but that is another topic
Lihan Taifun laughs. when ainur manifest a body, it is called a "fana", which is funny, because it is the word for "cloud", but it makes an ainu MORE visible to physical beings
Zakar Zamin: really. It's not in my copy of the Silmarilian either
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien used the word "fana" in reference to the Istari's bodies -- which were completely ordinary human bodies, but the same word would apply to something like the shape Ulmo uses when he is talking to people, which sounds more like an illusion. so I am thinking there must be some range of how realistic ainur make their bodies
Zakar Zamin: finding some interesting things in various forums http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=97695
Lihan Taifun: interesting. I hadn't seen that before. maybe we could make something of this the topic for next month's Tolkien Discussion Group. we don't have a topic yet
{Ael arrives. Greetings.}
Zakar Zamin: A lot of people do a lot of thinking on Tolkien's writings
Lihan Taifun: we love that kind of speculation. we get very speculative
Lihan Taifun: hello Ael! we were just getting sidetracked about ainur bodies!
AelKennyr Rhiano: ohh...any bodies I know?
Lihan Taifun: Zakar asks very perceptive questions. I think it started with whether Eonwe would need to sweat
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, I did go on the assumption that sword practice would be more meaningful in a corporeal form, and so a 'body' would have certain physiological needs, regardless that a spirit created that form. Ergo, sweat.
Zakar Zamin: Someone's analysis: http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=54050 Includes lots of quotes
Lihan Taifun: I'm trying to leverage this into the September topic for Tolkein DIscussion
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh...yes, I did look at that when I was preparing for that rp notecard...blushes. I find that it has been very challenging playing a Maia. If you play the character too etheral, then neither you nor the other rpers really have a relationship with the character. There is this absence of investment for me, if that makes sense. But on the other hand, if you play the character "too" mortal, then you have a problem as well.
Zakar Zamin: I'll bet. Having heard the Music, even being a part of it, you would have an idea of what is going on, or coming, without many particulars
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But, as we have talked about in our discusson group...how far does that knowledge extend? Does there come a point where what the Ainur know of the song does not extend beyond their current point in history?
Lihan Taifun: and how detailed is the knowledge?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly! Lihan is our Tolkien scholar. the rest of us are mere amateurs.
Lihan Taifun: Zakar has been holding out very well!
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh? Now that is a compliment...smiles. So, you are a fan of Tolkien, Zakar?
Zakar Zamin: As I recall, Manwee has the best view, because of where in Iluvetar's mind he sprang from.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Zakar Zamin: I confess that my memory is enhanced by Google and tolkiengateway.com
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh...You are in good company there :P
Zakar Zamin: I've read the Hobbit, LOTR and Silmarilian but have yet to read the other books I have aquired. You could say I'm a fan, though not as passionate as the people in the forums
AelKennyr Rhiano: Cool! At the risk of sounding vain, have you been following our rp?
Zakar Zamin: I have read some of your RP. Mostly due to time constraints
AelKennyr Rhiano: I am sure Lihan gave you the blog website :)
Lihan Taifun: as a sample of how we are handling the ainur
Zakar Zamin: yes, she did
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod She does a wonderful time line and storyline on the site.
Zakar Zamin: and, to confess, I hardly read the Sylvhara posts either
Zakar Zamin: And that is where I spend most of my SL time
AelKennyr Rhiano: I have become a little hopelessly lost on the Sylvhara posts. Wonderful rpers. Great people. I adore Comet. She is Olwe's cousin, you know...winks
Zakar Zamin: I did not know that I focus on what I'm involved with and ask questions as needed... like I would if there were not postings
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun whispers to Zakar: Ael plays both King Olwe and Ulmo and Eonwe
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Zakar Zamin: That is something I have a little difficulty with: playing established characters from the mythology.
AelKennyr Rhiano: It has been more of a challenge to play Eonwe than to play Ulmo.
Lihan Taifun: playing original characters is much easier, and we encourage original characters
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, it is, and she is very right. Olwe was easy because so little was truly known about him. Except, as Lihan likes to point out, he is related to just about every other elf. :P
Zakar Zamin: well, aren't they all related? somehow or another
Belenos: backs... *rubs her ear from where it's been flattened by the phone*
{Wecomes.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: That might be up for debate... The Vanyar did not seem to intermingle with other elves.
Lihan Taifun: except Indis was Vanya; that makes one
AelKennyr Rhiano: True, that.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods...yes, it certainly does.
Zakar Zamin: Which brings another question to mind: Aule only created 7 dwarf lords... how do they procreate?
Lihan Taifun laughs! We have had that topic!
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol nod nod nodnod
Zakar Zamin: ok, short answer?
AelKennyr Rhiano: with short bearded dwarf ladies?
Lihan Taifun: short answer is that Tolkien drafted about 6 rough drafts of how to write the Dwarf Mothers, and didn't like any of them, so Christopher left them all out of the Silmarillion
Zakar Zamin: Maybe they just split in two, like a cell.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Lihan plays a dwarf mother in the 4th Age. Very lovely, too, I might add.
Zakar Zamin: From Tolkiengateway: The Seven Fathers awoke in their places in pairs with their wives, though Durin I had awoken alone.
Lihan Taifun: yes, that is the general gist of most of the drafts, though it doesn't explain how Durin became the ancestor of the Longbeard clan of Dwarves
Belenos: he hopped a dwarven fence? :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg.....lol