Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Lihan Taifun
Zakar Zamin
The idea, of course, is to react the way your character would react, not the way “you” would. This creates a 3-dimensional character. How do you do that? “It is about finding the way that character would express himself that is unique to him or her.” Does your character have any personal habits, mannerisms or preferences? Think specifically about “what side of my character's personality do I want to bring out in this scene?”
Your character's personality may grow or change over time, but it should be consistent, and the changes should happen for a reason.
Ael's pet peeve: roleplayers whose response to any situation is “smile”, even when smiling makes no sense in the context. Education and setting a good example can help.
This is sometimes a symptom of roleplay moving too fast for the slow typers, who become desperate to get any response in before the action moves on. In this case, the solution is to ask everyone to slow down and give everyone time to type their responses.
Where is the line between “roleplaying” and “creative writing”? What is too much writing of descriptions, or too much of a character's introspection? This varies, depending on the group and it's style. Fourth Age tends toward encouraging creative writing, and writing for the benefit of the wider audience who reads the finished notecards. In groups where the roleplay is primarily for the benefit of the people present at the time, the style could be substantially different. Find a group whose style you enjoy.
Solo notecards are often more introspective than roleplay in a large group. You certainly need to give other players physical cues to respond to, because they can't – and shouldn't – read your character's mind. (a good example of players responding only to what they can know about the other) Descriptive writing becomes excessive when it takes so long to type that it slows down the roleplay (however the local standards define “slows down”). But even a small amount of body language can do a lot to enliven the RP.
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...to enter the discussion of "walking the walk and talking the talk," we have examples right before us. :)
Rajani Milton: :D
Belenos hugs Shawn close.. that was awesome Shawn
AelKennyr Rhiano: It was! I am sorry if we disturbed the flow of the rp.
Belenos: I always love how you play Manwe.... I love the depth and thought you give him.. *smiles*
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I do, too
Rajani Milton: :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: And, if I may, may I point out some things that you do so well, Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: thank you. I didn't think it went well but ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: What did not go well, in your opinion?
Ilianor Illios: wow lihan you are a very sexy dwarf :)
AelKennyr Rhiano grins
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'She is, isn't she?'
Rajani Milton: very cute
Lihan Taifun laughs
Ilianor Illios: yes very nice avatar:)
Rajani Milton: I love the boots, and the beard!
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think we caused you to struggle a little bit, did we, Shawn?
{Discuss some plot details of the roleplaying session just completed.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: talking the talk and walking the walk... I think, we got a good example of what happens when a rper gets thrown off track... poor Shawn.
Belenos nods
Lihan Taifun: once you get off balance, it is hard to recover
AelKennyr Rhiano: He is very immersive in his portrayal of Manwe. He "becomes" Manwe.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'He does!'
AelKennyr Rhiano: But for Shawn, he already has in his head where he needs to go, and what to do.
Belenos: and he likes to know where the RP is heading too... so throwing him what looks like a curve ball in it derails him a bit
Lihan Taifun: I can relate to that
AelKennyr Rhiano: and he speaks English so well, we forget his first language is French. so it can be a double whammy.
Belenos: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Even after all this time, he is still uncertain if he portrays Manwe well. And he has said Manwe is hard to rp. He makes it look easier that it is. But, if I may ask, what does he do that when he is Manwe...well, he's Manwe? :P How does he bring Manwe to life?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'He gets into his head, I think. Really puts himself in his position.'
Belenos: yes.. he responds as manwe would... not as shawn would..
AelKennyr Rhiano: And how do we know he does that? What are the tangible things we witness?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'He speaks with power and depth, as Manwe would. He doesn't chatter. He doesn't see things or speak from a modern viewpoint. He seems to really respond as though he did have all that responsiblity of Manwe upon his shoulders.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES! AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes and smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: Nole smiles alot. He is a mild mannered person, kind and a little shy. He adores his king and follows him blindly.
Belenos: yes.. nole is a very different character to manwe
AelKennyr Rhiano: Shawn plays Nole that way, and Nole, is very close to Shawn's own personality.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'yes, that is what I'd thought about Nole'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Manwe is nothing like Nole or Shawn. At least the Shawn we see. :) And Manwe speaks more powerfully.
{We move back to the regular meeting hall, because the roleplay venue had automated security. Zakar joins us.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: We had observed a rp, and was commenting on one of the rpers as part of our discussion. Talking the talk is more than just emoting well. It is emoting the character. using eaching rp to flesh him or her out.
Belenos: yes.. that's the thing, isn't it... fleshing a character out so they come to life, and are more than 2D
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is about finding the way that character would express himself that is unique to him or her. yes, Belenos. To rp with a person who brings their character to life is so much more enjoyable.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I certainly think that is what Shawn does with Manwe, and what you do too, with Eonwe.' He is different than Olwe or myself.
Lihan Taifun: definitely different
Belenos nods.... yes...
AelKennyr Rhiano: His manner of speech is different. His world view is different. His life experiences are different. And before each rp, I ask myself, "What can I do to show a new side of Eonwe?" so...to make this a discussion, please each of you share what you do to bring your character to life.
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks
AelKennyr Rhiano: Belenos, what about you?
Belenos: hmmm.... well with yavanna, I've tried to give her personal mannerisms...
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, neat...like?
Belenos: like the tucking the hair behind her ear... and how 'she' likes to read her correspondance with her meals.. personal habits, how she dislikes being inside rather than out with her creations
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wonderful, and she loves her husband, that is so very clear.
Belenos: oh yes... of course we all know they are married.. but in preparation for the upcoming storyline i've highlighted that a little more than I normally might.... I had to think what angle i wanted her character to take.. was she a cold, dedicated worker.... or warm and caring.... or hot headed
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Belenos: They are all things I thought I had to think on.. and be prepared for her to be consistant in this .. maybe let some of it fluctuate as she grows... but she has to be who she is
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES!
Belenos: she can't be cold one week and warm and caring the next.. not without good reason
AelKennyr Rhiano: "She has to who she is."
Belenos: yes... how she responds is not dependant on my mood on a particular day.. it's who she is and what is happening in her world that she should respond to
AelKennyr Rhiano: May I share a personal "dislike" with regards to rp? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Please?'
Belenos: yes.. do
AelKennyr Rhiano: A person who response, no matter what the situation is, is , "She smiles."
"Who are you?" she smiles.
The body fell, lifeless at her feet. She draws back, horrified. She smiles
Belenos: omg
Zakar Zamin grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: I know you all have encountered rpers who do that.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
Belenos: inappropriate habitual emoting
AelKennyr Rhiano: They "smile" a question. They "smile" a response. Yes! Drives me batty
Lihan Taifun: oh no, now we will be selfconscious about smiling *giggles*
Belenos giggles at the thought of a batty ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'But there are so many ways one can smile without it being an automatically typed thing' 'And it shows one has put thought into the response and its appropriateness.'
Belenos: yes... exactly
Zakar Zamin: A thought, If I may.
Belenos: of course Zaker
Zakar Zamin: Some people do not have a great vocabulary, which may or may not be evident.
Belenos: well that is true... but staying with the smile example... try this
Belenos smiles softly
Belenos smiles gently
a soft smile curves her lips
her lips curve in a knowing smile
her lips twitch as she tries to hide a smile
Zakar Zamin: And while a "wry grin" may be more appropriate, "smile" is all they think about.It's not an excuse and SL's text enviroment is a great place to learn and grow. Just wish to give pause for understanding and compassion.Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I think what Ael was trying to draw out, was not even how they smiled, but that they smiled in ANY situation, when it was not always appropriate to do so.'
Zakar Zamin: And that would be annoying.
Belenos: oh.. there is understanding about it Zaker and compassion too... but none of my examples required a large vocabulary.. but as Rhun said, I think Ael's point was that it was inappropriate emoting... she's terrified and she smiles?
Belenos: maybe grins nervously.. but not a smile..
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I think that is what he was meaning. For example, if I may Belenos?' 'When you type in general chat, you use a lot of ... to break your thoughts and comments. This is your habitual typing pattern. Yet when you role play, you do not use that. You use appropriate text and emotes.'
Belenos: yes.. you're right... *giggles now every time she goes ....'
AelKennyr Rhiano: reads up...exactly
Belenos: so it's not that we seek a large or even creative vocabulary... but appropriate emoting
Zakar Zamin: So how do we educate such folks?
Belenos: and btw.. welcome back Ael.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: The standard answer is "classes like these!" But in reality, the best way is by example. And if you know the person, you can talk to them in im.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
Zakar Zamin: How often do you have classes here?
AelKennyr Rhiano: weekly
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Gee, Rhun, you are supposed to be on my side and you smiled when I died?" :PPPPP "I want a new side!"
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'That's because I know I'm in your will?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Zakar Zamin chuckles
Belenos: LOL you are sooo bad
AelKennyr Rhiano: Also, Zakar, if I see a rper doing a lot of "pat, non-descriptive" responses like that, I will say something in local, OOC, asking that the rp be slowed down enough to allow everyone to respond. A lot of times, people are doing that because the rp is rushed or they are used to the rp being rushed
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I have encountered that before. Where one is not given enough time for one's response.' 'If a response is not posted fast enough others feel the need to respond over you and 'keep things moving' so it breeds bad habits.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: And it makes for poor rp.
Belenos: yes... that is something we were always trying to teach the dragons.. allow time for others to respond... don't 'drive the role play'
Zakar Zamin: I've seen fast RP and it does tend to override slow typers
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, I will tell you honestly that some rpers would prefer to have bad rp that is fast like that than slow rp that is good.
Zakar Zamin: It winds up being a phrase at a time
AelKennyr Rhiano: And all one line dialogue.Zakar Zamin: Or half line
Belenos: but what is the quality like?... it's different of course if it's a conversation happening, perhapsAelKennyr Rhiano nods
Zakar Zamin: because they need to get
Belenos: but action, thoughts, emotions?Zakar Zamin: their thought out
Lihan Taifun: with Phoenix viewer, you can tell when people around you are typing, but it doesn't work on all viewers, and it doesn't work if someone is starting a post with /meZakar Zamin: as fast as they can
Zakar Zamin: for exampleRhûn Darkmoon: 'But why is there that need?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: And really, what you are teaching them, Zakar, is bad rp manners.
Rhûn Darkmoon: "When the Lady Lihan and I RP for example, if there is more to follow a simple (more to come) after a post lets the others know to wait.'
Zakar Zamin: That's a good idea
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is
Lihan Taifun: that really helps, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: And it also creates garbled rp because a person is so hurried to post they do not watch what they are typing at all or make any attempt at grammar or punctuation. There is also no way to convey WHO your character is. What are their thoughts? Feelings? Why are they important? Who are they?
Belenos: and consider this too....
Eonwe: 'Do you defy the Lord of the West, Smith?' Aule: 'How dare you imply I am disloyal!'....... to.... Eonwe's eyes burn with outrage as he breathes, 'Do you defy the Lord of the West, Smith?'.... Aule's eyes narrow dangerously as he snaps, 'How dare you imply I am disloyal!'
time given for a longer response gives much more flavourLihan Taifun: yes, and those examples didn't require very much more typing
Belenos: and when one is posting snippets, how do the others know when you are done with your posting?
Zakar Zamin: That brings to mind something I would like your opinion on - something that bothers me: over emoting (for lack of a proper term)
AelKennyr Rhiano listens
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'How do you define over-emoting?'
Zakar Zamin: In other words: emoting your deepest thoughts and feelings
Zakar Zamin looks around the room nervously, wondering of the groups thinks he is weird or just silly.
for exampleAelKennyr Rhiano: and you call that "over-emoting?"
Zakar Zamin: It seems that, while you may all see me looking nervously about, there is no way you can know 'why'. and that may be a bad term
Belenos: Like: Eonwe had never felt secure in his role as Herald. He always felt everyone thought him nothing more than Manwe's errand boy. Hell, even all the female maiar treated him like he was just a messenger boy. He had no status with them. No wonder he never scored. So now all this anger and frustration boiled to the surface as he faced Aule, 'Do you defy the Lord of the West, Smith?'
Belenos grins
AelKennyr Rhiano glares at Belenos, his hand curling over the arm of the chair.
Zakar Zamin: It makes for a great read, but RP?
AelKennyr Rhiano: no, no, it is not a bad term.
Belenos: that is why one finds the middle ground... :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: If all the character does is that...then they add nothing to the rp.
Belenos: sometimes something long like that might be appropriate as an introduction to a first scene...
Zakar Zamin: So is there a distinction between creative writing and RP?
AelKennyr Rhiano: now, in solo rps, those tend to lend themselves to self -reflection.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I think Belenos has the gist of it. Somewhere in the middle ground, so we get creative role play.'.. smiles
Zakar Zamin: I agree, solo rps are naturally different
Lihan Taifun: on the other hand, Belanos, that IS a great read, and we don't want to cut that off entirely
Belenos: yes.. but it would not be appropriate to have something like that before EVERY response in conversation
AelKennyr Rhiano: Rp is creative writing. It is an expression of it. I would submit.
Zakar Zamin: well, yes
Belenos: yes.... it is... most definitely
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I know my RP is different when I am working with another in a scene to when I do a solo notecard. Again I think it falls back on appropriateness and quality.'
Zakar Zamin: I'm trying to remember the different categories: 1st person, 3rd person, limited omnicience. School was a long time ago
Belenos: limited omniscience??
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Lihan Taifun: and probably better ways to include that information about a character
AelKennyr Rhiano: limited?
Omniscience
objective
narrative
Zakar Zamin: As I remember, limited omniscience is the style an author uses in which only the thoughts of the main character are revealed. full omniscience is where everyone's thoughts are known
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, correct
Belenos: ahhh. thank you for explaining.. for some of us school was a very long time ago indeed
Zakar Zamin: but I encounter a lot of people who's emots include information no one else in the group should know about.
AelKennyr Rhiano: And it can. But a good rper will not responde to reflective statements.
His boots strike the floor with a sharp, flinty sound as Eonwë crosses the expanse of the room and replaces a sword newly sharpened. Time has stretched into a breatheless, endless moment of painful ache, deep loss, and, for the Maiar, a waiting. He turns and surveys the home that he has never asked for, but which the Lord of the West provided. He has kept to himself for endless moons, hiding even from the sight of Tilion's vessel, having at last found the endless running tiresome and unproductive. Out in the night, an owl called to the Moon, and the shrill answer of a bat was the reply. With a sigh, he turns toward the door leading to a bedroom and a bed he does not use.
The example above...that is, in your opinion, over-emoting?Zakar Zamin: no, maybe overly descriptive. Zakar Zamin grins
Belenos: really?... my thought is that it set the scene really well in the mind's eye
Lihan Taifun: you say "no one else in the group should know about" - There is also the issue of whether the readers should know
Zakar Zamin: Lihan, maybe that is where I err. Is RP for the moment or for people to read later? Or both?
Lihan Taifun: that may depend on what group you are playing with
Zakar Zamin: If we intend it for a 3rd party, then including our thoughts, which the other characters can't know, could be appropriate.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Ahh, there is a difference, is there not between a story with a purpose and just day to day 24/7 role play on a sim?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, the idea behind posting rps is to inform 3rd parties. Otherwise, why post the rps?
Lihan Taifun: and, as Zakar is pointing out, the fact that we post the RPs is shaping our style of writing
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I think it is a good shaping. While not all role plays are the same, or even for the same purpose. I like the style we use.'
Belenos: yes.. the role play you were talking about earlier.. the style of snapping out fast posts.. is that reposted to a group?
AelKennyr Rhiano: but if I may post a few more exchanges, I believe this is a good example of how rpers handle knowledge revealed about the character fleshes out the character but does not lend itself to godmodding.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Yes please, Ael.'
Belenos: I'd like that
AelKennyr Rhiano:
Eonwe stops short at the sound of the knock, blue eyes widening. He turns toward the sound, and hesitates for a moment. Deliberately he does not probe to see who may be waiting without. Does he answer or no? A look of indecision cross his face, and for a second, the Maiar feels this physical body respond as the heart beats faster. Then he straightens his back, and with the carriage of the Herald he has always but lately been, he crosses to the heavy double doors, carved in the likeness of a tree, and through them to the outer foyer and the doors beyond which waited his guest.
Ilmarë hears a firm tread cross the floor, and then the door is flung open. A tall form stands there, unmistakably her brother, but tense and stormy of countenance as she has never seen him before. She remembers even in the last wars with the Fallen One that Eonwë was bright and proud and eager for battle. Never...worried. "Eonwë?" she ventures.
There she is; skin the color of midnight sky littered with a thousand stars. Dark tresses that obeyed no rules but to lie as they will about a face both wise and innocent. Her eyes look into his, and for a moment he cannot tear his gaze away. Ilmare. Ilmare his counterpart among the Maiar, the handmaiden of Varda. Ilmare the sister of his spirit in so many ways. The dark etheral beauty, who knew him better than any other, save the Breath of Arda himself. "Ilmare, " he whispers softly. Then he recovers himself and stands to one side to allow her entrance. "You have returned. I did not," he pauses. "I did not know."
YOU know each side of the character. They are responding only to each other.
Belenos: and what would that be without the descriptive in it?... four, maybe five lines of banal words of greeting that carries nothing of what is really going on...Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Exactly. This conveys so much more.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: and so other rpers, those who play other Valar and Ainur, they see that exchanges and it helps them flesh out how their character interacts with these two. I think good rp is good creative writing at its highest.
Belenos: yes.. *smiles*
Lihan Taifun: I have also seen, when you have a character being deceitful, you almost have to be able to read the contrast between that characters words and thoughts
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes...very true. But there are many , many ways to rp. My preference may not be yours. And that is ok :)
Zakar Zamin: Ah... if it was ok, we wouldn't be complaining about someone smiling over a body. „ã° But I get your drift
AelKennyr Rhiano: You can over -emote, but usually over-emoting is in reference to emoting to the point of godmodding other players. Not allowing them the opportunity to react to your action.
Belenos: lol.. well i suppose that depends on the disposition of your characters too.. a drow probably would smile about a body.... lol
Zakar Zamin: And I thank you for the perspective.
AelKennyr Rhiano: no problem.
Lihan Taifun laughs. I think drow have no friends
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Spiders maybe?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: As I did say, it was my personal bug. We all have them.
Zakar Zamin: Yes, though your comments may help keep mine under control
AelKennyr Rhiano: But that is a case of apples and oranges. It is hardly a rp style to "smile" at everything.
Belenos: you didn't say Zaker.. your role play.. is it posted later?.... or role play for the moment?
Zakar Zamin: Usually for the moment.
AelKennyr Rhiano: so it is never posted? Is it a 24/7 environment?
Zakar Zamin: I'm usually in Sylvhara... a lot gets posted. And I have been involved in some story arcs. ... which were posted.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Sylahara tends toward posting edited rp chat logs. That is a different approach, and yes, more of the moment. I know some 24/7 rp sims never post the rp as they are living it, and there are no story arcs.
Zakar Zamin: It also doesn't lend itself to long paragraphs
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, not at all.
Zakar Zamin: A month or so back, we had a visitor who tried to paragraph RP with us and it didn't go over well. And with that, I need to leave. But I did find something you may find useful or, at least, interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_omniscient_narrative
AelKennyr Rhiano: I have rped in Sylvahara several times without any problem. BTW, I teach English in rl :)
Zakar Zamin: ah, my worst and best class
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: I have RPed a couple of times in Sylvhara
Zakar Zamin: Ael, you probably didn't complain about the rapid pace of the posts
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is impolite to complain on another's rp sim. I did, however, when someone started rping over us all, asked for everyone to slow down as some people were not getting the chance to post.
Belenos: I'm afraid I've never found their storylines of enough interest to try to... *blushes* but then I'm tolkien to the core... :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: You are?....pokes to see.
Belenos yelps and grins.. you gotta poke harder than that to get to the core.. :P
AelKennyr Rhiano pokes harder.
Zakar Zamin: OK, I've got to go.