Sudden Silence

< Previous    

Lihan Taifun

The sounds in the Alqualondë market are subdued — the restless pounding of surf in the harbor, so unlike the waves that rocked the ship; the skittering of a leaf blown by the wind across the pavement; the murmur of the fountain in the central square, still running though  the ones who maintained it are vanished.  And over all, the cry of the sea birds.  Their voices remind Aztryd of the birds that nested above the hidden gardens of Ibirgathol.  This elvish city is not her home, but the voices of the birds give her a sense that this is —or was — someone's home.  Someone knew these birds as friends.  Just as someone's child fit the clothes she has been looking at.  What strange thoughts, in this melancholy, deserted market.

Suddenly, the birds erupt in a frightened clamor that fades into the distance.  Aztryd pokes her head out the shop doorway.  Gone!  The birds are gone.  That isn't like them.  These noisy sea birds are curious as magpies, equally thieving, and more likely to fly toward a stranger than away.  Good thing they don't like the produce of the gardens, because they are impossible to frighten away.  Yet it seems something has frightened them.  The imperturbable swans around the fountain are missing as well.  With a growing unease, Aztryd moves out into the square.

Was that the sound of a splash, in the harbor?  She has read of catapults used to throw rocks at ships.  A large rock landing in the sea might make a sound like that.  Are we under attack, then?  She races down to the wharf for a better view.

Yes, there is something dark and very large in the water.  Swimming in the water.  Swimming toward the beach.  She watches, horrified, as a beast pulls itself onto the beach.  There can be no doubt: a dragon!

All else forgotten, she runs back to the palace.  She and Nizl need to be in a safe place!  Gather with the women and children!  The Grandmothers will know what to do!

Fireside Chat -- Races: Avari and Avariel, part 2, and Integrating Fantasy Races

< Part 1     

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano  

Lihan Taifun            

Rhûn Darkmoon     (zu.dragoone)

Shawn Daysleeper  

Summary:

To accept a species not in Tolkien's world, their existence would need to be "creditable" and also not a conflict with his world. Yes, this is fantasy, but it still needs to make sense.

Tolkien's (and any good author's) creatures are all suited to their environments. So any new race to be added should be able to explain why their special characteristics developed in response to their environment. “Nature does spawn diversity...but that diversity always has a purpose.”

For example, why would flying be a valuable survival skill for elves? Were there predators on the ground they needed to escape? Did they live in tree-tops or mountain tops, where flying was the best means of transportation?

Modern humans respond to survival pressures with technology, which is much faster than biological evolution. (Humans with imperfect vision wear glasses.) Why did these elves not build themselves something? Did they lose their technology? (How? What happened to their civilization?) Did they never develop technology? (Why not?) Or are their wings actually mechanical after all?

What did they give up when they developed the ability to fly? Every change involves tradeoffs.

This is very much like “creating a backstory” for the race. A person proposing a non-Tolkien race for the roleplay should be prepared to explain how this race is believable in the Tolkien universe.

Tolkien's Avari elves were those who did not even attempt to relocate to Aman, the Blessed Lands. The elves who did relocate believed that some of the Avari were captured by Melkor and turned into Orcs. Most of the Avari just drop out of the story. Some may have mixed with the Green Elves. Possibly the first Humans encountered Avari, but very little is known of the Humans' earliest times. Tolkien is only telling the story of one corner of one continent of the world. We have no information on what was happening elsewhere.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So...about last week...any comments, or thoughts or questions?

Lihan Taifun:             I think it makes sense to talk about whether or not a non-Tolkien being would be a *plausible* development

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'We were talking about how an elf would develop the ability to fly, yes? Did we come to any conclusions on that?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   No, we did not, Rhun. I was really hoping William would be here...I was going to ask his permission to be our flying 'guinea pig" and have us discuss what an avariel elf would look like. Like all species, we could assume that there would have had to be a very special reason for the development of wings. Perhaps it is a response to preserve the species against a predator

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Then perhaps in his absence we could talk about the issue the Most Beautiful Lady Lihan has raised?'

Lihan Taifun:             yes, some reason why flying was a very valuable survival skill

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I think the two are tied, in a way. Because, would you not say that most of the beings in Tolkien's world are suited for their environment?

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I would say they were suited for the environment they'd been in up until that time, yes.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So, to accept a species not in Tolkien's world their existence would need to be "creditable" and also not a conflict with his world.

Lihan Taifun:             yes

Shawn Daysleeper:   so what would their environment be so that they needed to fly?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That is a great question? Don't you all think so?

Lihan Taifun:             they lived in treetops or mountain tops, and flying was a good means of transportation?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   not only a good means, but the best means. else why bother with the adaptation.

Lihan Taifun:             or, as Ael suggested, there were predators who couldn't jump very high

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Treetops would work, I think. It could have begun as leaping and then gliding, perhaps?'

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Shawn Daysleeper:   ok, I was curious

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It was a great question. I am glad you asked it.

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Lihan Taifun:             hee, I can kinda picture elves jumping from tree to tree, like flying squirrels

Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Or tarzan?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And we have to remember something, too...species do not just evole...they can also devolve

AelKennyr Rhiano:   lol

Rhûn Darkmoon thinks of elves in loinclothes and grins

Lihan Taifun:             lol

AelKennyr Rhiano beats his chest and does the tarzan cry

Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Ael, 'No loincloth?'

Shawn Daysleeper:   ooo hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano:   lol!

Shawn Daysleeper:   lol

Lihan Taifun:             and also, what real humans would do -- or I suppose elves -- is build themselves something to assist them, which would be so much faster than biological evolution

AelKennyr Rhiano:   right, and we do know elves were technologically more advanced than the humans.

Lihan Taifun:             like ... humans wear glasses

AelKennyr Rhiano:   YES! Lihan hit the point extremely well.

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Nature does spawn diversity...but that diversity always has a purpose.

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'If that is the case, then why not use their technology to fly, rather than grow their own wings?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Bingo! Kudos, all of you!

Lihan Taifun:             right, Rhun, that would be a very relevant question. maybe avariel have no technological skills? or no suitable raw materials?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   To make the existence of avariel elves plausible at all, all this has to be considered. Now, about this time, someone would argue.."This is fantasy. It doesn't have to be real. And they are right. It doesn't. But it should make sense. It should be plausible on some level."

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'It doesn't have to be real, but believable?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   nod nod nod  And yes, Lihan. What if they survived the destruction of their civilization? All their society's knowledge lost? So. we could give them a credible and believable background.

Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'So their civilisation would have had to be destroyed early to allow sufficient time for the evolution of flight?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes

Lihan Taifun:             if they live in trees, they wouldn't be metal workers -- that requires fire, which is not compatible with trees

AelKennyr Rhiano:   right again. And there is something people overlook when they are criticizing D&D and stating it is not compatible with Tolkien. It is a game.

Rhûn Darkmoon nods and listens

Lihan Taifun:             maybe their "culture" was more like the Vanyar --- mostly song and story, rather than technology

AelKennyr Rhiano:   and they could be descendants of Vanyar who, for some reason, left Aman. experienced some cataclysmic event.

Lihan Taifun:             or descendants of relatives of the Vanyar who never went to Aman?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   or that, too

Lihan Taifun:             found some really comfy trees that provided food and shelter, and their major survival stress was that it wasn't safe to come down to the ground

AelKennyr Rhiano:   and so they adapted.

Lihan Taifun:             "go" down to the ground, they would say

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Go down meant death

Lihan Taifun:             predators that weren't good at climbing trees

Shawn Daysleeper:   it could be their home was in one of the more hostile areas of the world, such as near the realm of a strong ally of Melkor

AelKennyr Rhiano:   nod nod nod

Lihan Taifun:             yes, could be!

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Good thought, Shawn'

Shawn Daysleeper:   there is a lot of mythos of a strong evil servant of Melkor in the south, the land of the Mumakeem

AelKennyr Rhiano:   oooh...good thought! so...now that we have discussed this, and looked a little closer....Are avariel elves incompatible with Tolkien's world?

Lihan Taifun:             if the weather is mild, there would be less motivation to develop technology

Shawn Daysleeper:   there are a lot of wild corners of the world that are not described

Lihan Taifun:             oh yes, we only hear about one corner of one continent

Rhûn Darkmoon:      I would say not incompatible, really, in view of what you've all put forward?'

Shawn Daysleeper:   I would say they are compatible

Lihan Taifun:             at least "flying elves" could be compatible. We don't have William to ask if there are any other essential qualities of "Avariel" that make them "Avariel"

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now I submit, what you don't want is a lot of wild, unfounded speculations without actually researching the race.

Rhûn Darkmoon nods in agreement, 'The race would have to have a suitable history defined, yes?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes.

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes, the one that posits this race has some homework hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And they should have to make the arguement for inclusion of their race.

Lihan Taifun:             history, and culture and physical description

AelKennyr Rhiano:   They should know their race well enough to do that.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And, with apologies to Will, he definitely did not.

Lihan Taifun:             at least not yet

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right, and to his credit, he was willing to listen to others and to learn

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'yes, he was'

Lihan Taifun:             yes, that is a good sign

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, it is. And we learned a lot from the whole discussion. And we learned to distinguish the Avariel elves of D&D tradition from the Avari of Tolkien.

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Rhûn Darkmoon nods

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The Avari were those of the Noldor and Teleri who refused to go West. They were after known in Quenya by the name Avari because they refused the summons

Lihan Taifun:             were not the Avari ALL the elves who refused to go to the West?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, ma'am. But I didn't think there were any Vanyar amongst them. Were they?

Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'I.. I confess I am unfamiliar with the Avari. Would you mind sharing a little of what you know about them, my Lady, for this ignorant elf's benefit?'

Lihan Taifun:             I don't think any Vanyar. Though there might well be clans whose names we don't know

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun:             You recall that the Valar invited all the Elves to relocate to Aman, for safety? Shortly after the elves first awakened

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes

Rhûn Darkmoon nods

Lihan Taifun:             The followers of Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe decided to accept the offer. Other groups of elves decided not to. Partly because Melkor had been spreading scary stories about the Vala Orome, and his giant horse, and partly because the description of the Two Trees didn't motivate them so much

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Little is known of them, as they do not appear often in the tales. Some of them merged with the Nandor and Sindar in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin and became known as Silvan Elves, right?

Rhûn Darkmoon nods and leans forward, listening with interest

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Please, Lihan, please continue.

Lihan Taifun:             right, they drop out of the story at the point where they decide to not move to Aman. Some of them may have been captured and turned into orcs -- at least the other elves suspect so

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun:             the Nandor and Sindar are at least mostly descended from Teleri who started the trip but didn't finish, but there may be some Avari mixed in. and ... we only hear what happens in that one corner of one continent. We really don't know what happened elsewhere in the world

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And the Avari...were they the first elves humans encountered?

Lihan Taifun:             So little is known about Humans early days ... but what you say is possible

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I wondered...It could be possible they were. Wiki...which is not the end all and be all of all sources...says: The Avari were the first other sapient race encountered by the Men. The Avari taught them many of the basic crafts of civilization, though the craft of the Eldar surpassed that of the Avari even more than that of the Avari surpassed primitive Men.

Shawn Daysleeper:   there could have been other tribes of humans that encountered the winged Avari, that were not mentioned or lived in Beleriand

Lihan Taifun:             there could be a lot of things, yes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   But that is it. We never got a description of the Avari as winged, did we? Just 'wild.'

Shawn Daysleeper:   maybe not all Avari were winged?

Lihan Taifun:             if you had only stories about the history of the British Isles, you would never know about kangaroos

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right, Lihan

Shawn Daysleeper:   just some evolved the wings because of the area environment they lived in?

Lihan Taifun:             that sounds much more likely, Shawn

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Well, I will tell you what I wondered, and I was curious why no one ever suggested it... Maybe neither the Avari nor the Avariel elves evolved wings at all. They built them. Technology, remember? Maybe those wings are manufactured, not biological.

Lihan Taifun:             ohhhh, that would be a totally different interpretation!

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Wouldn't it, Lihan?

Rhûn Darkmoon blinks and thinks, 'But, how would they control them? '

AelKennyr Rhiano:   How, indeed? But then again...how did the art of using sails evolve?

Lihan Taifun:             so you could work out a different system, based on that

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Yes, I think so. It would be in keeping with Tolkien's world.

Lihan Taifun:             yes, there would be possibilities doing it that way

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So...please, let me ask what you all would like to discuss next week?

Lihan Taifun:             are we working our way through various races?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes :)

Lihan Taifun:             I have my collection of circumstantial evidence about dwarves

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, dwarves! please

Rhûn Darkmoon beams, 'Yes, Dwaves!'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That would be awesome.

Shawn Daysleeper:   dwarves would be fun

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Sooo... next week dwarves :)

Eönwë Reports to Manwë

< Previous    

AelKennyr Rhiano and Shawn Daysleeper

Sweat beaded on the forehead of this corporeal body Eonwe has clothed himself in. He finishes his practice and crosses the yard to where a towel and a flask of cool water had been placed on a bench.  He lifts the towel to his face and  wipes the grime away, reaches for the flask. Tilting his head back, he sucks down the water, a low groan of pleasure as his body responds to the restoration of bodily fluids. It is useful to practice in this body, he thinks, to push past it limitations and prepare himself, keep himself battle ready, especially that one so close to Manwe has proven false. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees a brother Maia cross the field and come up to him at a brisk run. He listens as the Maia, with great deference, tells him that he had been already summoned to Manwe's presence some time ago, and the Lord of the West again has sent for his Herald. Eonwe nods curtly and waves away the Maia. Dropping the towel to the bench, he pauses olny to drain the flask. Then he tosses it too, atop the towel, and leaves both for another to clean up behind him.

The Breath of Arda, Manwë Súlimo

The Breath of Arda had summoned for his Herald some time ago. He had heard that Eonwe had returned from Melkor's old prison and desires to hear his report. The Herald has rarely been late, and the Lord of the West could only guess as to Eonwe's delay. To pass the time, Manwe gazes out over the world from his lofty height, contemplating the creation.

Eönwë

Without pausing to change, the sweat of the practice field cooling upon this flesh he has chosen, Eonwe strides through the halls of Ilmarin, his face dark, his eyes mere slits, his breath hot, and under it, he mumbles to himself.  His fists clench and unclench, and many a Maia turns and gazes in surprise at his back once he passes, though none dare stop the Herald as he hurries through the halls until he is before the door of the throne of the Lord of the West. He plants his palms firmly against the ancient woods and with a grunt, he pushes the door open, wide, to slam back against the walls, before he storms into the room.  He leaves the door wide and moves up the hall to stand before his Lord, while two winds scurry in to pull the doors shut. His voice is low, rough and harsh as he greets Lord Manwe. "I am here as thou commandst me."

Manwe looks over the form of Eonwe curiously. He sees the sweat beading on his skin and unkept clothes. He twitches a little at his Herald's tone of voice, uncharacteristically harsh. Long has it been since the voice of his Herald caused this uneasy feeling with the Breath of Arda. Nodding to his herald, the Lord of the West rises. "I apologize to pull you away from your training. Your strength and knowledge of arms is most beneficial."

Eonwe looks up as the Lord of the West rises gracefully from his throne. The soft words and gentle tone of his Lord flows over Eonwe like a cleansing rain, and he recovers himself enough to sink to one knee and bow his head. "I am thy Herald, my Lord. Though some forget your majesty, and respect for this office."

Manwe extends his hand, as to help Eonwe rise. "I am respected by your service, my Herald."

Eonwe looks up, into the face of Manwe, seeks the hand, and his eyes lose their flintiness as he remembers the kindness of the Lord of the West. He reaches up and takes the hand in both of his. "My Lord knows not the hearts of some who should reverence thee, not seek to rebel against thee. For I tell thee, Lord, not all respect thy great status as Lord of us, and seek to thwart thy word and will."

Manwe thinks long over the words of Eonwe. With a faint nod he motions Eonwe to have a seat beside him. "Please sit, my Herald. Tell me what you have learned about these that seek to rebel." His face shows slight concern as he resumes his seat on the throne.

Eonwe gives a short nod, and steps up on the platform where he has always stood by the side of the Lord of the West during those times others come unto his Lord's presence. He glances over at the chair, and back up at the face of Manwe, and instead, paces before the Breath of Arda. "My Lord, I obey your will always," he begins, speaking through clenched teeth. "You have commanded, and I have obeyed." His eyes restlessly rove about the room, his body taut, his steps taking him in circles upon the raised platform.

Manwe watches Eonwe pace in circles before him. His thoughts carry his mind to Eonwe's actions and words,  uneasiness and reaffirmations of  his oath. After a few moments Manwe asks, "Did you visit Aule the Maker in Melkor's old prison beneath the Halls of Mandos?"

At the mention of the name of the Maker, Eonwe's face contorts into a mask of rage. His eyes narrow, and his lips purse as his hands clench into white-knuckled fists. He shakes with a rage he does not pretend to hide, but lays it bare for his Lord to see. "I went, as you commanded, my Lord, " he answers, spitting out the words."Aule," he hisses out the name, and his face grows darker, "The traitor has been very busy, very busy. I saw the chambers that once held his brother, and yours," he continues. "Would I could have imprisoned him there ere I left."

At this outburst of emotion, the Lord of the West is shocked. Eonwe is a foundation of solidarity, of reason. "What..." Manwe begins. "What has Au... he been doing there?" He does not mention Aule's name as it clearly hurts his Herald. Eonwe's unorthodox behaviour has certainly caught the Lord of the West off guard.

"Doing?" Shoots back Eonwe, pausing in his pacing to face Manwe. He takes a step forward, planting a foot upon the raised dias upon which rested the very throne of Manwe. He leans forward with a sneer and looks into Manwe's eyes, as his reply comes hotly from his lips."The viper, the traitor, he who defied Blessed Eru, how could you expect aught else?" He leans forward more and plants a hand upon the throne and the other upon his own knee."HE had done no less than move against you in open defiance! Wiped the chambers clean!  And beneath the very nose of Mandos. What was HE doing? I should wonder. Do you think they plot together, my Lord?"
 
Manwe slightly clenches his hands at the mention of Aule's defiance. Otherwise, he contains any open angry emotion. In a flash, memories of the long ages of the world upwelled his mind. His broher Melkor, contained for milennia in the chambers, undoubtedly he would have left remnants of his planning against his brothers and sisters of light. "This, indeed, bodes ill for us, and you did not see Mandos? I think we should speak to Namo about this matter. I need to know if they do indeed plot together."

"Speak? Speak?" He pulls back and pushes his foot off the dais, spinning around to pace, casting a look of disbelief at the Lord of the West. "I speak to you of plots and open defiance, and you wish to 'speak' to one of the traitors? Are we to invite them here? Shall we seat them upon your throne? Has the passage of the ages made thee soft, Lord Manwe? Wilt thou allow them to upturn the whole of creation while you speak of speech?"

"Enough!" Manwe Sulimo rises. His face was stern, but with a slight expression of hurt, pain. Never has Eonwe resisted him like this before. "You speak of defiance from others: perhaps I see some of that defiance before me here!" The words come out of his mouth, but they stung his very being. Emotions swirled about, seething, mixing in his mind.

Eonwe stops his pacing and whirls about to face his Lord, his eyes widening at the words which issue from the mouth of the Lord of the West, the very core of his being stung at the words. He stands stock still, his fists uncurling, body trembling. "I defy you? I?  I who have served you these long centuries. Do you accuse me, my Lord of being unfaithful." There is anger, and hurt in his answer.

Manwe furrows his brow in anger. "Inviting our brothers to resolve an issue is not liken to my surrendering my throne to them!" replies the Lord of the West. He has not felt anger such as this over the many turnings of Arda. "I do not accuse you of faithlessness. However your actions this day have certainly changed. From you, I seek reasonable council, not threats or unfounded reports." Again Manwe was hurt by his own words, and from the words of his loyal herald.



((to be continued))    

The Forgotten Letter

 < Previous  

Rhûn Darkmoon

The distant peaks of the Pelori Mountains gleam softly under the gentle hand of night.  The land is silent and still.  The panorama of stars are well into their  nightly dance across the sky.  In the woods a vixen slinks silently from shadow to shadow to her lair where her young ones greet her, yipping softly in their excitement as they smell the kill she has brought to them.  Overhead the trees of the forest whisper their secrets to each other with the passing of a gentle breeze.

Although tired from the long hunt of the night the vixen is unable to settle and paces restless in the confines of her den.  She raises her nose and snuffles at the breeze as she seeks a cause for the unease that is upon her.  Her eyes gleam amber bright in the starlight as they turn to gaze towards a light that flickers in the distance beyond the edge of the forest that is her home.  Night after night that light has flickered where previously none had shone so late.  The vixen shakes herself, fluffing her fur against the chill of her disquiet. At last, her kits quiet and satiated from their meal,  she settles herself at the mouth of her den, her chin resting on her paws but her eyes never leave that flickering light.

Beyond the edge of the forest, cloaked in the dark of the night, lies the Halls of Mandos.  Light streams from a single window onto the grounds beyond.  A shadow passes across it from time to time as the occupant paces restlessly to and fro by the window.  For this is the manner in which Aulë Talka Marda, Friend of the Noldor, the Maker, now spent his nights.  His hair and beard dishevelled, his clothing creased from long wearing, he mutters darkly as he paces. Occasional phrases can be heard as his feet take him restlessly back and forth.

"Insolent puppy!' trails off into dark mumblings, followed by, 'How DARE he question my loyalty!'   Suddenly his voice rises sharply as he shouts to the silent walls, 'How dare he bare his blade to me, to ME!'  

As the heat of his wrath bursts forth, he pauses a moment and tilts his head as though listening to an unheard voice.  Without thought he turns and stares sightlessly in the direction in which lies that dark chamber in which he spends his days.  More and more of late he has found himself reluctant to leave it, finding there the only ease to the agitation that had become such a constant part of his daily life.  Even now, deep in the hours of darkness he feels the tug of it, like a hook cast cruelly in his flesh for it pulls at him ruthlessly, constantly, until he again steps over that shadowy threshold.

The thought of that dark cell brings to mind again the confrontation there with the Herald.  His lips curl into a silent snarl as his mind replays yet again the arrogant stance of the upstart Eonwë, his sneering voice completely devoid of the proper respect that should be shown to the Maker and his final act of contempt in drawing his sword in his presence. 

By now his face is puce with his rage. Without thought he kicks out at the chair before his writing desk, venting his wrath as he sends it crashing across the room.  His chest heaves with the intensity of his fury and he stares unseeing at the spot where the hapless chair had been.   He blinks a little for a moment as his vision clears and tilts his head as he notices a sliver of white peeking out from behind one of the legs of his desk.

Bending, he reaches for it, his fingers closing upon the long forgotten missive from Yavanna.  He huffs a little as he remembers the night he had placed it aside for later reading.  'Well, now is later.' he mutters as he straightens and splits the seal with his thumbnail.  The parchment crackles as he impatiently opens the letter.  His eyes skim down the words and he mutters a little and crooks an eyebrow at the news and admonishments of his wife.  His brow darkens again as his mind reads only judgement and criticism in words that normally he would have found filled with love and gentle caring.  When he reaches the end, he gives a snort and mutters, 'We'll see about that, my fine wife!', the last word barely more than a sneer of contempt.

With brisk footsteps Aulë strides across the room and retrieves the writing chair from where it had come to rest, lopsided against the wall.  Placing it before his desk he seats himself and reaches for fresh parchment and quill.  Dipping the quill into the inkpot, he begins to write.

"Wife," he begins, deigning the use of any endearments, "I find your admonishments both unnecessary and ill-informed!  I am more than capable of making my own decisions without being tied to the strings of thy girdle!   Nor should I have to waste my time and energies dealing with your whining when matters most dire confront me."  Unnoticed, the heated strokes of the quill splutters ink messily across the page. 

Further he writes, "It has been my intent to remain working here at the Halls of Mandos indefinitely for I would not leave until my study of the dark magicks is complete.  Indeed, it is even my intent to move my quarters to those formerly dark chambers, the better to facilitate my work without the daily trek down to the depths of the Halls."  He leans back a little in surprise at this for the thought had not entered his head until this minute.  After a moment he nods briskly and mutters, 'Well, it makes perfect sense,' and then bends again to his task.

"Alas, it has come to my attention that at last the arrogance of Manwë's little pet Herald has shown his true colours. He dared to even draw his blade in my presence and indeed hold it to my throat!  It has become apparent to me that he is a viper in our fair brother's bosom and this I cannot allow to continue!   With this in mind then, I find I am forced to leave my current task and journey to Taniquetil and inform him of the unforgivable actions of that insolent puppy Eonwë, lest the puppy prove to have more than milkteeth and turn my brother's heart against me."

His quill pauses a moment from it's wild dash across the page as his lips curl in contempt as he ponders his next words. "Indeed, my wife, if mine you still are, I would say I hear the whisperings of that unweaned milksop reflected in your words to me in your latest missive.  Methinks that treacherous cur has perhaps been whispering in your ear in my absence, no doubt using his effeminate charms to turn your head and your heart from your loyal duty!  It would appear I am surrounded by disloyalty!"  The tip of the quill actually punctures the parchment, such is the force with which he wields it.  Ink splatters again but Aulë's eyes see nothing but perceived treachery all about him. 

With a flourish and no closing endearments at all, he boldly signs his name.  Hastily he affixes his seal to the missive and tosses it carelessly among the pile of correspondence waiting to be sent. Already it is forgotten as he rises from his chair, strides from his rooms and, ignoring the lateness of the hour goes to summon his maiar.  They must move his belongings down to Melkor's cell at once and he had a journey to prepare for. There was no time to be wasted!

> Next Aulë     > The Letter    

Eonwë's Homecoming

< Previous    

AelKennyr Rhiano

Atop the highest mountain in Arda, in the  Pelóri  on the shores of Valinor are the halls of Imarin, where lives Manwë, Lord of the West, and his spouse, Varda Elentári. Unto that mount did the Voice of Manwë, the Herald Eonwe returns  from the chambers that were once the prison of the Dark Lord.  His lips compress into a thin line, his eyes tight, steely; every line of his body bespoke a rage that smolders and burns within his heart.  Into the home bestowed upon him by his compassionate Lord ages past, he tears the cloak from his shoulders and flings it into a corner of the outer chamber.  With both his hands, he slams the palms against the aged wooden doors that open into the main inner room, the wood shuddering under the force.  The groan of the door upon its hinges goes unnoticed by Eonwe as he pulls and tugs at his armour, unbuckling his bracers first as he recalls, again, the words and actions of the Mighty Smith.

 "As you can see, there is nothing for you to record. The chamber has been cleansed. The spells are gone." The Vala had stood there and mockingly gestured at the blank walls.  Eonwe hisses as he strides into the bedchamber and over to a stout wooden chest and heaves open the lid.  Lovingly has the Mightiest in Arms always stored his armor there, brightly polished, tended with care, but tonight, he tosses each piece in as he peels them off, not bothering to buff or polish them or even wrap them in bits of wool, but he lets them clatter against each other.

"Puppy," Aule had called him. The Herald of Manwë called "snake," and "milksop." Eonwe snarls as he sheds the tunic and jerkin, tossing both atop a bed he seldom uses.  Angrily he paces the room.  The Maker has betrayed his brothers and sisters, just like the treacherous Melkor. There is no doubt in the Maia's heart.  His hands curl into fists. After long centuries of rigid control, of control and practiced deliberation, this rage...this uncontrollable desire to smash, to attack to purge himself of the deep fires that burn both shock and excite him.  He burns with a passion that is as strange as it is exhilarating.

Looking about the chambers, he sees where rests a secondary blade in its sheath.  Reaching for the weapon, he slides the leather cross harness on and pulls the blade from its sheath, giving it a twirl of his wrist and slicing the air with it, hearing the blade sing in fierce joy.

He assumes a warrior's stance, the simple act of wielding the weapon soothing his frustration at not being able to act as his anger would direct him, for  he tore himself away from that chambers with the greatest of reluctance.  The thought of bringing steel against the neck of the Smith curves the Maiar's lips into a fierce grimace, and for a moment, he moves through room in a warrior's dance, bringing the blade up and through a series of slashes, stabs, parries, his blood singing.

"Why?" he thinks, as this body flows from one series of moves to another, "Why should I be so insulted, so mocked when I represent the Breath of Arda himself?  Has my service unto Manwë, Lord of the West, come to mean so little that I must endure the taunts and crude jests of such a one as.." he growls the last.." as him, vile and twisted has the Smith become. "For now the second time, has one of the Valar fallen to his own pride and folly."

Calmed only by the practice with the blade, the feel of it in his hand, Eonwe fetches his practice armor from another chest and  dons each piece.  As he readies himself to go to the area set aside for practice with sword and shield, his heart burns again hot with anger.  "And how is it Manwë allows such disregard for himself and for me?"  He sweeps from the bed chamber and into the main room, warming to the topic.  "For Aule's disobedience, he should share the Void with his dark brother and leave the making of Arda to another." He glides toward the door. "And I shall tell the Lord of the West so."

> Next    

Dragon Fall - Part 2

< Previous     

Dometis turns back to Olwe, watching him approach as well. He raises an eye ridge when he hears Olwe's proper title. "King Olwe, my apologies. I had no way of knowing of your title," he manages to grumble out looking down and lowering his head further.

Olwe keeps his eyes fixed on the dragon, watches Dometis warily as he walks up to the dragon. Close up he can see the creature is in pain. "I think you are right, my lady, he is hurt."

Slowly Olwe kneels in the sand, reaches out, fingers outstretched to touch a dragon. Dometis flinches as the elf comes close and gently touches him. Dometis gently presses back at the touch. Nole is amazed at what he is watching. A great beast and his king reaching out to each other.He has seen lots of things on his voyages, but nothing like this. Gently the Lord of Alqualonde brushes his palm across the muzzle of the dragon before him.  His blue eyes are wide with wonder, and his brow creases as he turns his gaze to the eyes of Dometis. "Know you were you are?" he asks softly.


Apakenwe watches curiously.  From the stories she has heard of dragons, this is not at all how she expected one to act. Dometis stares as the Elvish prince rubs his maw, amazed at the Lords bravery. "I haven't the faintest, Lord Olwe," he answers.

Nole is glad this beast is friendly. He expects this dragon could easily destroy the entire city and everyone in it. Why would he come to Alqualonde, a largely empty city, than anywhere else? Where is the dragon's kin?   Olwe raises his gaze to glance up at Apakenwe's face, his eyes searching hers to see her reaction.  His hand absently strokes the long ridged snout of the dragon. Apakenwe returns Olwe's gaze, her eyes wide with her own questions. Olwe takes a deep breath and turns back to Dometis. "You are in the Swanhaven, the home of the Teleri elves. You are in Alqualonde." Carefully he watches the dragon, waiting to see if the information sparks a reaction. His eyes lift only long enough to take in the massive size of the dragon before him.

Apakenwe runs her non-physical perception down the surface of the dragon, but there is very little she can perceive without forbidden prying. Dometis's eyes drift to a close as he searches his vast memory for those names. He tries desperately, but to no avail. His eyes reopen as he answers, "I am sorry, Lord Olwe. At this point in time I have no recollection of either of those names, but thank you informing me of my whereabouts" He looks up, gently nuzzling the hand that is stroking his muzzle.

Olwe nods absently, for there is nothing in the tone of the voice, the shift of the eyes that would indicate the dragon spoke aught by the truth. "How came you here?  From whence came you?" He leans back a little the heel of a boot. "I think that your landing is not one most of your kind would seek."

Nolë

Nole wonders where this dragon came from. He watches closely, making sure his lord was not falling into a trap.

Dometis chuckles, then winces in pain. "Aye, that landing was not one to be proud of. I cannot tell you from whence i came as I myself do not know the names. However, I have been travelling for days on end, in search for allies. I have flown many leagues for many moons."

Apakenwë

Apakenwe asks with concern, "May I examine your injuries?"

"By all means, Lady elf. May I know of thy name?"

"My name is Apakenwe.  I fear I am no trained healer, but I will see what I can do."

Olwe looks up at Apakenwe's question, his eyes watching her face carefully, even while his hand remains upon Dometis' muzzle. He looks back at Dometis, the sounds of the swans and seabirds, still shrilling their protests high overhead, rise and fall  with the rolling sound of the waves against the shore. He waits for Apakenwe to answer the dragon and then asks, "How came you to be injured?"

"Thank you, Apakenwe. Any help, great or minor, is most welcome."
Olwe turns and waves for Nole to step nearer, now that the dragon seems to be of little present danger. Nole walks up beside his king, and stands beside him. He is still uneasy but his king's actions have called him. He asks, "How did you discover Alqualonde? Were you en route somewhere and happen to find us?"

"Ah that is a lengthy tale, Lord: however, to be brief, I blacked out from exhaustion, only to awaken but a foot above the canopy of the forest. I crashed into the trees, never a good thing for any species. I also believe the landing in the harbour didn't help a great deal."

Olwe glances up at Nole and catches his eye.  Olwe's gaze reflects the incredulity at the thought of any creation falling asleep in flight. His face grows contemplative as he looks back over at Dometis, a thousand questions in his mind, but for now, he must ponder how extensive were the injuries of the being before him. He looks over at Apakenwe's kneeling form. What drove this dragon to such extreme measures?

Dometis eyes the elf who had hung back, but now steps closer, "I have my keen sense of smell to thank for the discovery of Alqualonde

Nole sees a wounded spot on one of the dragon's front legs. He drops down and starts to bandage it. His knowledge of healing is not especially helpful but he could bandage wounds. "A cooking fire? That could be our kitchens. Estelin has been trying to ... cook again, I suppose you could call it." Olwe tries to suppress a groan at the words "cook" and "Estelin."

Apakenwe places both palms against the dragon's shoulders, feeling smooth scales.  She extends her awareness through his body...  yes, this seems to be an entirely physical creature.  Perhaps a very clever and skilled Ainu could mimic this, but much more likely this is a mortal dragon.  Following the connections of the bones ... up the neck, down the spine, into the legs ...  plenty of bruises, and some cuts in the skin.  More serious, a broken rib, and a broken bone in the right foreleg.  She walks around to the affected side of the dragon.

"Careful, Nole, there is a broken bone in there. And a broken rib as well...though..." She eyes the girth of the dragon and says, "the rib will not be easy to bandage."

"Oh?" he looks questioningly at Apakenwe. There are a lot of injuries. "I don't think he will be flying again for a while," he remarks.

Dometis winces in pain and growls a little in reaction, more of a reflex. The rumbling causing even more pain to course through his body, making him stop and grit his teeth.

"It is hard to imagine any creature flying until they dropped from the sky, " says Olwe gently. "I think when you are more rested, we shall need to hear what drove you to such measures," Olwe tells Dometis. He jerks his hand back at the sudden growl, as much by reflex, and eyes the dragon as he seems to shudder in pain.

"This bone here" she explains to Nole, holding a hand over the spot on the dragon's leg.  You can tie it together, or something?"

"My apologies, my lord, just a reflex to pain." He turns his head to eye the unnamed elf. "As much as it saddens me, i do believe you are correct, elf. What is thy name?"

Nole looks at the giant bone that needs mending: it is longer than he is tall. "I am Nole, and serve Olwe as the master of sailors. I think it would do you well to rest for a while," he says as he turns back to the bone.

Dometis slowly nods. "Aye, it is for the best, Nole."

Olwe looks up at Nole and nods his agreement. "It seems, Dometis, that you are our guest here, for I cannot see you continuing your journey onward.  Especially," he pauses to look up at the skies, so clear, so fair, and then back down to the dragon before him, "since you have no destination in mind. But mind you, I think I need to hear why you would exhaust yourself so and take such risks."

Dometis turns back to Olwe, dipping his head a little in respect. "Aye, King Olwe. Thank you for..." he pauses searching for a better phrase "...well, not killing me on sight. Believe me as soon as I am rested and well, you, and all who wish to listen will know of my story." He gently preses his snout to the King's forehead and then lowers it. His breathing deepens as his injuries drain his energy.  he tries to fight back the pain

> Next Olwë     > Next Nolë & Elenwë       > Next Aztryd     > Next Apakenwë    

Estelin and Elenwë See a Dragon

< Previous Alqualondë      < Previous Estelin & Elenwë    

  

Carleen Luckstone and Shawn Daysleeper

Elenwe opens her eyes slowly, aware she has been sleeping in an uncomfortable position. Her back is stiff where she leaned against the stone near the waterfall. She groans quietly as she stretches. "I always seem to nap when I'm here," she thinks, "even though I come here to think. Ah, well, as least I have spent a time of peace and solitude here." As she rises and reaches for her sword, Vanima, Elenwe looks instinctively to the sea, looking out over the placid waves. As she buckles Vanima in its usual place, her steps take her toward the palace.

Having learned some of the art of cooking from Nole, Estelin decides to try to cook lunch for Olwe and the other Teleri. His grip on the utensils has gradually improved as his understanding of how to cope with his physical body has waxed. Irmo the Valar was beginning to understand the beauty of the Teleri in this form. His attempt at cooking consists of a bunch of things thrown together in a pot that he has seen Nole use for cooking: chocolate, vegetables, fish, and ... noodles.

Walking through the quiet grounds outside the palace, Elenwe wonders briefly where the other Teleri are. Not that there is much bustle here, but things are quiet. However, an unusual smell drifts on the breeze. She sniffs the air, trying to decide if anything is amiss. "I wonder...." she thinks. "Could someone be trying to.....cook.....again?" Elenwe's steps quicken, and she hastens to the palace kitchens.

He stirs the mixture, the aroma from the food did not affect the Vala in disguise. Smiling, he hoped Nole and the others would appreciate his latest attempt at cooking. He looks at his hands, feeling their warmth. This feeling, which he had rejected and was afraid of when he first accepted this mission was now welcomed. He smiles as he continues to mix the concoction in the pot.

"Oh, Estelin, it is you!" Elenwe exclaims as she appears in the kitchen door and sees him mixing something in a pot. "Are you, um, ah, cooking, by chance?" She looks about, trying to decipher what Estelin has put into the pot. "I thought we had harvested all the noodles in the garden. Did you find more?" Elenwe removes Vanima and her cloak, preparing somewhat timidly to assist Estelin in cooking. Her previous attempts had been so disastrous, she had stayed far away from the kitchen ever since.

Turns and smiles as Elenwe enters the kitchen, he replies. "Yes, I have been studying the art of cooking from the wisest sailor, Nole." He dips the laddle carefully into the pot, bringing up a piece of fish with some semi-melted chocolate on it. He nudges the chocolate off the fish, and some noodles were underneath. "The noodles here seem to grow very quickly in the king's gardens. I found quite a few in his garden last day." He nods to the chocolate. "This is my first time adding this ingredient, I watched Nole bake this in what he called a pie shell, so I thought, why not try it with the noodles?" he smiles.

"I have seen that used in pie, but had not realized it was also used with soup or stew. Have you tasted it? Were you preparing this for Lord Olwe?" Elenwe looks around for bowls and utensils.

"Yes, for our Lord Olwe and his people. He and Nole are in the archery range practicing." He nods towards the window. "I have not tasted it yet; perhaps you would and see if it would meet their tastes?"

"Oh, ah, I seem to have lost my sense of taste. I seem to have developed a cough." Elenwe coughs several times for effect and follows Estelin's nod toward the window. In case he asks again, Elenwe moves to the window and gazes out, keeping her eyes fixed in the distance, hoping he himself will taste that concoction.

Estelin nods. "I hope you recover from your cough," he says as he returns the ladle to the pot. He looks onto the grounds below and notices Olwe and Nole looking skywards. Estelin scans the skies and notices a dark blotch there. "Wha--" He grips the window case. "What could that be?"

 Elenwe tries to look out the window, but Estelin is blocking most of the window, and she can only see a distant spot in the sky. Moving to look over one of his shoulders, and then the other, she says, "What? Where? I can't tell. Are we under attack? Could the King be in danger? I need to defend him!!!" Whirling without waiting for an answer, Elenwe grabs her cloak and sword and prepares to rush out of the palace. She does not know what caused Estelin's reaction, but her instincts have come to be protection of her valiant King before anything else.

Looking one instant longer at the object, the musician exclaims "Mi'lady! That could be a dragon. If it is a dragon, let us hope it is friendly. We do not stand a chance if it is such a beast."

Elenwe stops short and turns once again to Estelin. "What did you say? A dragon? Why would a dragon be here? In all my travels, I have never seen one." She cautiously approaches the window, still ready to dash out to face the dragon should it prove hostile. "Why might think you this might be a friendly beast?" she asks of Estelin.

"A dragon," he repeats, but he decides not to speak of the dragons of lore. Hideous and violent beasts that served the Fallen One. He did not wish to bring fear to the Teleri. "Well, let's think about it: why would a dragon come here on it's own free will, and alone it seems? This one is also... blue." He confirms as he looks at the dragon outside the window, now much closer than before.  "It's flight pattern also seems to be quite erratic, as if searching for something, not to incinerate everyone."

"Where did you say our King and Nole are?" asks Elenwe as she gazes doubtfully at the blue creature. "Shall I go to them, until this beast's intentions are known? I don't want to leave them with no means of defending themselves." Her hand reaches once more to draw her sword.

Estelin waits a moment before answering. "I think it would be a good idea to go to our lord's side. I just hope we do not appear intimidating and force the dragon to attack out of defence..." At that moment, a loud splash echoes into the room.

Elenwe hears the splash, but she is already speeding out the door and toward the archery range, her boots ringing on the stones as she grips her sword firmly.

Estelin quickly follows Elenwe out of the palace. The waves from the splash radiating out from a central point that seemed to hold, the dragon? Olwe and Nole were already running towards the beach.

Elenwe catches sight of Olwe, on the beach, and she swerves in that direction. She hears Estelin behind her. Nearing her king, she sees him with bow in hand but, as she approaches, he kneels beside what must be the dragon. Oh, what if she is too late, and fails her king as his loyal defender? She runs as fast as she can, hoping the dragon does no harm to Olwe before she can slay it.

Estelin watches the scene unfold as he proceeded to the beach. He had to rub his eyes to make sure he understood what he saw. "Olwe!" he says aloud, "is extending his hand to a dragon?" This is certainly one of the most amazing things he has ever seen.

> Next      

Fireside Chat -- Races: Avari and Avariel

Present:

Belenos the Bad   (belenosstormchaser.magic)

Lihan Taifun            

Shawn Daysleeper  

Rhûn Darkmoon  (zu.dragoone)

AelKennyr Rhiano  

William Shrinshee  (william.foresight)

Mark  (mark.irelund)

Summary:

Tolkien Elves do not die from old age or disease. They can be wounded, and can be killed by a sufficiently serious wound. This remains true of the Elves in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age/beginning of Fourth Age.

Dungeons & Dragons game was developed after Tolkien's works were published and well known. It was developed (as a board game with dice) before internet was available to home users, long before MMORPGs or virtual worlds.

Everyone is inevitably affected by the prevalent ideas of their culture. Once you are exposed to an idea, you can't “unknow” it. Both Tolkien and D&D have influenced popular culture and people's assumptions about what elves (and other beings) are like. That makes it especially important to be aware of which information is fact (in a given universe), and which is assumption.

D&D elves are long lived (500 years or more). They are said to grow “physically weaker and mentally stronger” with age. A character truly unaffected by age would be too powerful for a roleplaying game. There are subraces of elves for nearly any imaginable environment: wood elves, rock elves, snow elves, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

The physical appearance of D&D elves is fairly similar to Tolkien elves, except that D&D elves are slightly shorter than humans, whereas Tolkien elves are slightly taller. D&D describes the physical appearance in more detail than Tolkien, and has more variation in appearance between different groups of elves.

The history and culture of D&D elves is very different from that of Tolkien elves.

How can a Tolkien-based roleplay be “fantasy inclusive”? How might we justify including other beings?

  •  A realistic universe would include evolution – species changing in response to their environment.

  •  Elves living in different environments would be exposed to different stresses.

  •  Therefore it makes sense that elves have diversified over the millenia.

The question then becomes, “Could we make a case for a group of elves to develop the power of flight?” and “What would be a realistic result of this evolution?” Evolving flight would take time, and would involve trade-offs.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Ok.....Avariel elves... The other night, at Tolkien discussion, there was alot of things thrown about that were not exactly facts, so if you wouldn't mind, I would like to make some preliminary statements about elves in D&D.

Belenos the Bad nods.. ok

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, Lihan...please correct me if I am wrong about Tolkien's elves...

Rhûn Darkmoon listens with interest

AelKennyr Rhiano:   We do know that Tolkien's elves are long lived. They do not die from disease, is that so?

Lihan Taifun:             true

AelKennyr Rhiano:   But they can be wounded. And from a grave enough wound, they can die. They do not age, per se?

Lihan Taifun:             and one might think, the kind of wound that kills relatively quickly

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That is one assumption, yes, and a good one. Lihan, if I may ask...are we to assume that is true of the elves who remain in Middle Earth?

Lihan Taifun:             That seemed to still be true at the end of the Third Age

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now We all know here than D&D was developed decades after the publication of Tolkien's works. and the creators of D&D's handbooks and modules were well acquainted with Tolkien's worlds and the literary works of many other writers.

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, elves are a fictional humanoid race that is one of the primary races available for play as player characters. Elves are renowned for their grace and mastery of magic and weapons such as the sword and bow. Becoming physically mature by the age of 25 and emotionally mature at around 125. They are also famously long-lived, capable of living more than half a millennium and remaining physically youthful. They rarely die due to the wear of age. Possessed of innate beauty and easy gracefulness, they are viewed as both wondrous and haughty by other races; however, their natural detachment is seen by some as introversion or xenophobia.

So...at a glance there is not THAT much difference between the elves of D&D and Tolkien's elves...

William Shrinshee:   true.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   We could debate the "long lived" part vs the supposed immortality of Tolkien's elves.

William Shrinshee:   Fae and Dragons are said to be effectively immortal too in most fantasy writings unless killed in combat.

Lihan Taifun:             that seems almost splitting hairs

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It does, indeed. Please do not think, btw, that I am claiming that D&D is 100% compatible with Tolkien's world. But I think it is important to speak on the basis of facts and not interpretations.

Shawn Daysleeper:   nods

William Shrinshee nods as well.

Belenos the Bad:       I agree.. facts are universal.. interpretations are not

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, with D&D's elves, in general, Elves also do not age as other creatures; their physical appearances remain constant from achieving physical maturity to death. Elves do grow physically weaker and mentally stronger as they grow older, and accumulate a "glow" from the strength of their souls as they age

That is a big difference from Tolkien's elves. Am I correct, Lihan?

Lihan Taifun:             that part is different. I hadn't heard of Tolkien's elves weakening with age

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The main reason for that, as you can guess, lies in the fact that D&D is a roleplaying game and so you can see the detraction of having a character who can live indefinitely, growing in strength and knowledge without having some weakness.

William Shrinshee:   absolutely, like World of Warcraft, balancing powers/strengths/weaknesses

AelKennyr Rhiano:   When it was developed in the 1970s. they did not have internet games or SL. much less mmorgs

William Shrinshee:   board game with dice yep

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Virtural worlds were unknown.

William Shrinshee:   the Internet was unknown and computers were a mere hobby (outside of businesses that is)

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So...now, while there would many difference clans of elves in Tolkien, here is where D&D departs markedly from Tolkien. The different clans of elves are vastly different.

Lihan Taifun:             D&D is older than hobby computers

AelKennyr Rhiano:   There are numerous different subraces of elves, including aquatic elves, dark elves (Drow), grey elves, high elves, moon elves, rockseer elves, snow elves, sun elves, valley elves, wild elves (gruagach), wood elves, and winged elves (avariel). The offspring of humans and elves are known as "half-elves" among humans, and as "half-humans" among elves.

William Shrinshee:   aquatic elves? interesting and odd. =)

Shawn Daysleeper:   there seemed to be elves for every possible environment

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Yes, indeed.

William Shrinshee:   like dragons, for every environment

AelKennyr Rhiano:   As the D&D world expanded and developed, more and more clans of elves were created.

William Shrinshee:   and more races of dragons too

Lihan Taifun:             they needed something new to sell the expansion packs :)

William Shrinshee:   LOL so true

Belenos the Bad:       so they basically began based on tolkien elves but then expanded into much more and much different types of elves?

William Shrinshee:   It seems stranger elves when they had run out of ideas IMHO

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Researching into the early days of D&D, there was the allegation made, then, that the creator of D&D did just that, Belenos. Of course, only the creator himself truly knows if that is true.

Belenos the Bad:       it is not uncommon to be inspired by something one admires..

William Shrinshee:   Many fantasy authors admit that Tolkien is their starting point now.

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. yes, but that then, one did not readily admit to that. Mostly for fear of accusations of plagarism

William Shrinshee:   copyright lawsuits

AelKennyr Rhiano:   D&D had very humble beginnings, remember.

William Shrinshee:   copyright has expired?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The first thing we need to look at before we can discuss the Avariel elves, is to note the difference in appearance between D&D elves and Tolkien elves.

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So what were the differences in their appearance?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   thank you, Rhun.

Rhûn Darkmoon blushes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Please. I will stay on target because there was such misinformation last Wednesday night.

William Shrinshee:   ok

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So I apologize for not veering off very much. :)

William Shrinshee:   np

Belenos the Bad:       no, I agree entirely... please continue.. you are leading us on a logical thread

William Shrinshee:   yes continue please :)

AelKennyr Rhiano:   First, can someone describe for me Tolkien elves, their general appearance?

William Shrinshee:   slender, tall, little body hair, somewhat delicate in appearance

AelKennyr Rhiano nods encouragingly.

William Shrinshee:   (LOTR elves of course)

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Anyone else?

Belenos the Bad nudges her grey matter.. I know that those of royal teleri background often had fair hair, while others were dark?

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Belenos the Bad:       did that apply to other races of elves also?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Tolkien, did not have a lot of variation in the appearances of his elves, did he, Lihan?

Lihan Taifun:             not really, only the hair color, that I know of

William Shrinshee:   I can add magically attuned to nature, pointed ears and at least nearly immortal

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, we are talking appearances, not traits. That is important to note. Some people make the two the same thing, and they are not.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   ok...now in D&D....Slightly shorter than the average human, elves are also noticeably more slender and graceful (this is reflected in a bonus to Dexterity, and a Constitution penalty), handsome and beautiful averaging between 4½ to 5½ feet and 95 to 135 pounds. Males are slightly more muscular on average, there is little difference in height between the sexes, and neither sex grows facial, nor body hair. Their features in general may be described as more angular and defined; including long, pointed ears and wide, almond-shaped eyes. Most elves have fair skin and dark hair, though this is no more true of all elves than it is of humans. They have a reputation for careful grooming, more so than perhaps any other race. This frequently extends to their clothing, which is luxurious and well-kept, though not to the point of impracticality.

William Shrinshee:   so other than height, it is pretty similar

Lihan Taifun:             That gives more detail than Tolkien does. He never mentions skin color, eye shape, or pointy ears

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Well, I don't know if Tolkien thought we were meticuous groomers :P Elves with OCD! lol

William Shrinshee:   LOL   LOTR movies gives them the careful grooming typecast.

Belenos the Bad:       I think you are right william.. the movies have a lot to answer for

William Shrinshee:   LOL   as in not perfectly accurate? I am sure.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   D&D, by nature of its origins, had to further define elves...oh, yes...but that is probably the impact of games like D&D and stories and books that came after Tolkien's works.

Lihan Taifun:             The movies make them all blond, too

Belenos the Bad looks over at a particularly scruffy elf she knows

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, except for one poor elf.

Rhûn Darkmoon blushes

William Shrinshee:   the Director filled in details with other books; I agree with that. the demented elf Snegle

AelKennyr Rhiano:   There is something we often overlook in our discussions.... the impact of culture. You cannot "unknow" a thing once exposed to it. And D&D is a part of the larger culture. It left an impact.

William Shrinshee thinks that is quite insightful.

Belenos the Bad:       so once we have a modern concept of an elf in our heads we imagine tolkien's to be the same??

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Even if you don't personally play it... it still has an impact...yes, exactly.

Rhûn Darkmoon is suddenly rather pleased he is a scruffy elf

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That is why it is SO important to not assume you know but actually research before you start making statements like were made on Wednesday night.

Lihan Taifun:             that makes a lot of sense

Belenos the Bad grins.. still not too big for me to give you a decent hair cut though you know.. :P

William Shrinshee:   hehe Rhun does not want to conform to D&D hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now., let's continue on.

Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien did say elves don't grow facial hair -- he didn't mention the other body hair

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right

Rhûn Darkmoon smiles but keeps listening attentively

Shawn Daysleeper:   not that I am aware. and some such as Cirdan did have beards

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now...D&D did not introduce a lot of the clans I mentioned earlier until the Forgotten Realms adventures were released. And in D&D, these clans are called "subraces."

They differ physically from typical Dungeons & Dragons elves in that they are as tall as humans (5' 9‚” on average), or even taller. The exception are the Drow, who are of standard D&D elven height. In Faerûn, surface elves call themselves Tel-Quessir which means "The People" in the elven language. In 4th edition, most of the elven subraces were classified as drow, eladrin or elves.

William Shrinshee has a topic for a future discussion that he will save for later.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, here is where we see D&D depart dramatically from anything remotely Tolkienesque. Let me recap what becomes the history of the elves at this point, please.

The history of the elven race is marked by great empires and a gradual decline and retreat from the mainland Faerûn. The elves first came to Abeir-Toril from the plane of Faerie about twenty-five millennia ago. The first wave of elves to arrive were the green elves, lythari, and avariel. The second wave included the dark elves, who arrived in the jungles of southern Faerûn, and the sun and moon elves, who arrived in the north. Not long after, the aquatic elves arrived in the Great Sea. After the second wave of elven immigrants arrived, the Time of Dragons ended and the period known as the First Flowering of the Fair Folk began. The elves settled into five major civilizations along the west and south of Faerûn during this period. Along the Sword Coast, the sun elves established Aryvandaar and Shantel Othreier, and the green elves established Illefarn, Miyeritar, and Keltormir. To the south, in present-day Vilhon Reach, the green elves also created the nations of Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, and Syópiir. In the forests that once covered the Shaar, the moon elves established Orishaar, and the dark elves established Ilythiir. All of these realms were gradually destroyed as a result of the Crown Wars, which made way for other elven realms.

Shawn Daysleeper listens

AelKennyr Rhiano:   So we have a completely different mythos, and history.

Belenos the Bad:       very

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now...it is clear that anyone claiming the Avariel elves are the Avari of Tolkien have either not read Tolkien or not played D&D.

William Shrinshee:   yes Faerûn is NOT Arda at all.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   The avariel are very rare in Faerûn, since they have been hunted nearly to extinction by various dragons. Avariel remain in any number in only one place ‚Äî the Aerie of the Snow Eagles, a secluded mountain home in the north. Avariel maintain good relationships with aarakocra, and those in the Aerie of the Snow Eagles have recently reestablished contact with their cousins in Evermeet. The avariel make their homes in open areas, and take immense joy in flying. They absolutely abhor and detest being inside, underground, or otherwise restricted from the open sky. The avariel are known for their fierce clerical tradition, as devout worshippers of the Seldarine sky goddess Aerdrie Faenya.

The closest any subrace of elves come to being the Avari....and this is a stretch would be the wild elves.

Wild Elves or Green Elves (Sy-Tel'Quessir)

The most reclusive of all the elves, the wild elves pride themselves on their isolation and skill at keeping hidden. Their skin tends to be brown and they have similar colored hair which lightens with age. In 4th edition, wild elves are elves.[16]

The case could be made that since the Avari were "unwilling" to travel to the West and be with other clans of elves...they became "reclusive."

William Shrinshee:   Tolkien at least implies that some Avari were captured and bred to be orcs. by Melkor

Shawn Daysleeper:   that is a bit of a stretch

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It is....

Shawn Daysleeper:   unwilling to reclusive

AelKennyr Rhiano:   very, and admittedly so, Shawn. BTW...there is a subrace of elves in D&D called silver or mithral. Any comments or questions, thus far?

Shawn Daysleeper listens, wonders if there are chemical elves or periodic table elves...

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Very close to it, Shawn:P

Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Shawn

Belenos the Bad:       no.. it's all clarified things a lot, seeing as I do not play D&D

Lihan Taifun:             The D&D "history" for their elves is totally different from Tolkien, which is not surprising

AelKennyr Rhiano:   right

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes, it is clearer, I am not familiar with D&D so this is helpful

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now....the question has been raised...SO.....how does a Tolkien based rp who CLAIMS to be fantasy inclusive justify allowing avariel elves into the rp... I would like to offer some thoughts on that.

Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Now we get to the really interesting bit.'

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes

Belenos the Bad grins and agrees with Rhun.. for once

Shawn Daysleeper:   I would like to hear your insights

AelKennyr Rhiano:   First of all, if you are going to have a rp world that has a realistic touch...then you have to factor in evolution. Species evolve.

Shawn Daysleeper:   nods

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It is not practical or credible that entires races survive millennium without changes.

Belenos the Bad:       valid point

AelKennyr Rhiano:   They have to constantly adapt over the course of time to their environment. So..in that context...if you looked at the middle earth of the 3rd Age, it must be different than the middle earth of the first age. And so should the races themselves change over time.

Belenos the Bad:       you would think so

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That change may not be markedly visible, but it is there and ensures the survival of the species. On the heels of that , you must consider environment. To pull a question to consider straight from Tolkien and our discussion of Tolkiens elves...is it logical to assume that the elves of Middle Earth are exactly the same as the Elves of Aman by the 4th Age? Remember the Elves of the West are living with the Valar, the Ainur

Belenos the Bad nods.... what is the difference in their lives and environment?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   They live in an Eden, Belenos.

Belenos the Bad:       ok

AelKennyr Rhiano:   While the Elves of Middle Earth live in a mortal world of great change, in an environment where they have to assure their survival. All the struggles for survival we see in Tolkien, for the most part, where do they occur?

Belenos the Bad:       middle earth isn't it?

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. So, we who live in Aman, we do not have the same struggles, the same drives, the same imperatives as our kin in Middle Earth.

Belenos the Bad:       hence why olwe is feeling the differences since moving alqualonde into middle earth?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   As time goes on for the elves in the West, they can take longer to reproduce. Their clans do not have rapidly changing environments to adapt to, so evolutionary changes are slower to come.

yes, He is feeling the differences because they are there. In the world of Middle Earth, there is a struggle for survival that the Elves of the West do not have to address.

And that moves us into another consideration. In the need to survive...over time...wouldn't Elves as a race diversify. Would they not adapt to whatever environment in which they find themselves?

William Shrinshee:   Yes

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes I agree

Lihan Taifun:             you would think

Belenos the Bad:       especially if they were in different environments...

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Would not over time, they develop those physical attributes, skills, talents,etc. that are needed to insure their race survives.

Rhûn Darkmoon tilts his head and thinks, 'Kinda like webbed feet if they lived in swampy areas?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, Rhun. So, now, considering all that...in total....could we make a case for a group of elves to develop the power of flight?

Belenos the Bad:       flight, I would think is an interesting talent to choose to, or have to, develop. they'd have to grow wings

AelKennyr Rhiano:   They would. and as nature does not tolerate imbalance...they would grow those wings as the expense of losing something.

Lihan Taifun:             that certainly wouldn't be the easiest adaptation to develop

AelKennyr Rhiano:   no, it would not

Belenos the Bad:       it has literally happened in RL though so tis not impossible

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Soo...one can imagine that part of the evolutionary price for growing wings is a vulnerability to predators

William Shrinshee:   No thought of interbreeding here it seems.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes...actually does anyone know the evolutionary origins of birds? Were they always able to fly?

William Shrinshee:   It is considered to be modified hair. both birds and mammals are evolved from reptiles. modified scales are either hair or feathers.

Lihan Taifun:             evolutionary origins of birds are still under debate. They don't have all the details of that yet

William Shrinshee:  

Belenos the Bad:       i think flight began with gliding.. skin folds became useful.. expanded.. hair into feathers.. that sort of thing

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes. Thank you, Belenos

Lihan Taifun:             probably something like that, yes

William Shrinshee:   That is what biology text books say anyway. I have a B.S. in biology. Birds still have scales on their feet. indicates connection to reptile ancestors

AelKennyr Rhiano:   My point is that they had to develop it over time...and over the course of time...to gain the power of flight, there had to be evolutionary trade offs.

Lihan Taifun:             time and tradeoffs, yes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Thoughts...comments? Now...to extend this. And relate it to rp...

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'They would have to have a credible reason to need to develop flight. What would that be?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   right, Rhun

Belenos the Bad:       yes.. good point.. why would they need to?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That would have to be considered

Shawn Daysleeper:   nods

AelKennyr Rhiano:   More importantly...what did they lose to gain flight.

William Shrinshee:   The stories I have read is that they interbred. with Fae or Dragons. That is why I mentioned orcs., that is forced interbreeding.

Rhûn Darkmoon blushes

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Because I personally would not accept an Avariel elf with the physique of Aule.

Belenos the Bad:       they would have to gain lightness in order to fly... hollow bones etc.. so perhaps they'd lose strength.. and certainly weight

AelKennyr Rhiano:   William, I am going to challenge that until you produce documentation and apologize if that sounds offensive, but too much last week was presented as fact that was, at best, someone's ill researched opinion.

Lihan Taifun:             an elf breeding with a dragon is hard on the imagination. in more ways than one

Belenos the Bad:       actually william I think you will find that with tolkien it was not interbreeding.. but he created the orcs FROM elves...

William Shrinshee:   page 50, paragraph 3, lines 4-9:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were pu t there in prison and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of who they were afterwards the bitterest foes"

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That is off the topic tonight, please.

Belenos the Bad nods nods nods.. I cannot think it would be a pleasing experience for either party Lihan.. not to mention the birth process

Belenos the Bad:       ok.. so they evolved to fly... what did they lose in order to do so?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And again, I am keeping firmly on topic because of last week...so please do not take offense anyone.

Shawn Daysleeper:   yes, I am not taking offense

Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Not at all.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Well, if they have lighter bones, they had to give up body density, right?

Belenos the Bad:       yes.. I would think so, or have mighty wingspans like dragons

AelKennyr Rhiano:   right. So...we would need to talk about muscular and skeletal differences over time, right?

William Shrinshee:   true

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And their wings, how tough would they need to be, and yet be flexible?

Belenos the Bad:       would they be feathered or more likely membrane like bats?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right. So...would you expect brute strength out of an avariel elf?

Lihan Taifun:             birds, at least, need very large, strong pec muscles, which affects the bone arrangement

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right, Lihan :)

Lihan Taifun:             I suppose on an avariel, that might be shoulder muscles

AelKennyr Rhiano looks at William. So you guys would have manly chest...:P

William Shrinshee:   :P

Rhûn Darkmoon mutters darkly, 'Not as manly as Aule's though.'

Shawn Daysleeper:   lol at Rhun

Belenos the Bad:       lol

AelKennyr Rhiano glances at Rhun and shakes his head.

Belenos the Bad:       so the strength would go towards their flight ability, rather than strength in their arms or there rest of their body?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It would make sense. Upper body strength would be developed and devoted to flight.

Lihan Taifun:             high center of gravity, too

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Which means, like birds, on the ground, they would be less effective than in the air.

Belenos the Bad:       yes!... any creature of flight is always ungainly on the ground

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right! But If I may, everyone overlooked two things. Those long elven ears...would the Avariel elves have kept them? Are they very practical for flight?

Belenos the Bad:       maybe that's what their wings grew from?... :D

AelKennyr Rhiano:   omg ROFL

Rhûn Darkmoon grins

Belenos the Bad:       :D

William Shrinshee:   hehe

Lihan Taifun:             bats have big ears

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes

William Shrinshee:   The bats that rely on echolocation instead of sight do

AelKennyr Rhiano:   How are the ears oriented on the head? Thank you! Yes, William!

William Shrinshee:   big biology fan   =)

Lihan Taifun:             ok, some bats :)

Belenos the Bad imagines huge elven ears fluttering in the wind of flight and the headache that would ensure

William Shrinshee:   other bats that DO have sight have small ears

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It could be that the Avariel elves, depending upon environment, keep those long ears and sacrifice acuity of sight.

William Shrinshee:   (one prof. did his dissertation topic on bats and loved to talk about them)

Lihan Taifun:             wow

AelKennyr Rhiano:   What about vision? How would vision have changed?

Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'But to fly, don't you need accuracy of sight to see distance and down to the ground? Are there any flight enabled creatures with poor eyesight, other than bats?'

Lihan Taifun:             erm, chickens? but they aren't the best at flying

William Shrinshee:   better vision and not as good at hearing

Belenos the Bad:       yes, i'd say that's more likely willian

Belenos the Bad:       erm.. william

William Shrinshee:   some species of bats have excellent eye sight

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Depends upon your definition of "poor" vision. Birds see much different than humans for example, right William?

William Shrinshee:   not all bats live in caves and use echolocation

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Correct.

William Shrinshee:   yes they do. birds see much different

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Can you elaborate please?

{Shawn leaves. Farewells.}

William Shrinshee:   Eagles can see small amounts of movement in the water below so they can swoop down and eat them. "eagle eye" is genuinely superb eyesight beyond that of humans. not all birds are as good at sight as that but then they fly closer to the ground

Lihan Taifun:             how is eagle hearing? or smell?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   If you compare our eyesight against those of birds, in general, we have poor eyesight

William Shrinshee:   yes. I have not read a lot about avian hearing but in watching bird behavior they are always looking around and do not seem to rely on it.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I do not know if this is so...but I have been told that the closer an animal is to the ground, the better their sense of hearing and smell is ....as a rule of thumb

William Shrinshee:   land animals can be motionless until they hear a faint sound and then look around.

Belenos the Bad:       yes I thnk you are generally right Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Again, we do know about rules of thumb.

Belenos the Bad:       those with good hearing usually have bigger ears too.

William Shrinshee:   In general yes

Belenos the Bad:       birds just have a hole in the head.. lol

William Shrinshee:   LOL

AelKennyr Rhiano:   That was why I asked about William's ears :P

Belenos the Bad:       that's what the ear shape and dexterity is about.. so they can catch sound and move to track it

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Right

William Shrinshee:   an interesting fact about migratory birds is that they have a magnetic substance in their brain that detects the electromagnetic field of the earth

Belenos the Bad twitches her own ears and grins

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, does anyone remember a movie from the 1980s called "Flash"

Belenos the Bad:       never heard of it?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It was a remake of an old movie serial called Flash Gordon.

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'I'm not familiar with it.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Ok

William Shrinshee:   as in Flash Gordon maybe

Belenos the Bad:       oh.. flash gorden i vaguely recall

William Shrinshee:   otherwise no

AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes! There is a race of bird men in the movie

William Shrinshee:   ah yes, I remember them

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Big, hairy, bulky, muscle bound men with wings

Belenos the Bad:       ewwwww

AelKennyr Rhiano:   lots of chest hair, I might add.

William Shrinshee:   true

Belenos the Bad:       double ewwww

AelKennyr Rhiano:   and wings. Their heads looked a bit like eagles. That was their armour   :P

{Mark arrives}

AelKennyr Rhiano:   soo...any more thoughts...comments?

Belenos the Bad:       where were you going with the reference to the flying men in Flash?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I was going to ask everyone, after all we have discussed, would we find that physical description very plausible?

Rhûn Darkmoon shakes his head, 'No, not at all.'

Belenos the Bad:       yeah, I'm with Rhun... it's not ummm .. natural?

William Shrinshee:   I think their wings would need to be much larger if they are going to be so huge.

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

William Shrinshee:   plus they were ugly

AelKennyr Rhiano:   lol!

Belenos the Bad:       yes.. and that's a LOT of evolving for elves to do

AelKennyr Rhiano:   It is!

William Shrinshee:   Elves are not ugly thankfully.

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Or that hairy!

Belenos the Bad looks at the scruffy elf in present company and ponders that

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Hey!'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Hey!

Mark:                           smiles sardonically

William Shrinshee grins.

Belenos the Bad crooks an eye at Ael.. wasn't referring to you

Lihan Taifun:             heh heh, they didn't start out ugly ... but they might have become uglier over time, might they not?

Belenos the Bad:       that's a valid point Lihan   :D  Belenos the Bad grins and pokes her tongue out at Rhun

AelKennyr Rhiano:   EEEUUW   no!

Mark: but how would a race become uglier over time, unless they were cursed?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Ugly is not an evolutionary requirement!

Rhûn Darkmoon looks at the cat and mutters darkly

Lihan Taifun:             they probably don't think of the changes as "ugly"

AelKennyr Rhiano:   True, Lihan

Mark: hmmm . . . . I see

William Shrinshee:   There is a subset of natural selection called sexual selection where otherwise adverse traits are amplified if the females of that species esp. like it.  thus antlers that are way too big but get the buck attention

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Mark: but they are , essentially, ugly.  Mark smiles. uglification of the race

Belenos the Bad:       hehe.. there's just no accounting for some's taste

William Shrinshee:   large antlers are bad from a natural selection point of view across species.

Mark: thank you all :)

{Several people have to leave.}

AelKennyr Rhiano:   Well, that is all I have for tonight.

Belenos the Bad:       mmm.. perhaps we can continue this next week? .. I have a growing list of people demanding my attention at the moment..

AelKennyr Rhiano:   And, really, I'm done :)  Thanks everyone for being here tonight :)

Rhûn Darkmoon smiles shyly, 'I thought you mentioned a lot of relevent things that need to be considered about flying elves.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I tried to give the discussion the attention it deserved.

Belenos the Bad:       and yes, if we are to have flying elves, we really do need to sort out what they would be like.. their strengths and weaknesses

Lihan Taifun:             yes, decide what they would be like

AelKennyr Rhiano:   I think we laid the groundwork for some great discussion on that.

Belenos the Bad:       will we continue on that though next week?

AelKennyr Rhiano:   If you wish?

Lihan Taifun:             that works for me

Belenos the Bad:       I'd like it

AelKennyr Rhiano:   ok :)

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I thnk it would be good and relevant.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:   We can be a little less structured next week. I thought we needed to weed out the fact from the fiction.