Present:
Lihan Taifun
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
Tolkien Dwarves are roughly 3-4 feet (1.0-1.3 m) tall, “stout and stocky”. They all have beards, men, women, and babies. Female dwarves seldom go out among the other races; when they do, the other races cannot distinguish male and female dwarves.
Female dwarves are only 1/3 to ¼ the population. At least some of the women study crafts, and some of those are so absorbed in their occupation that they do not marry. What does it mean, if dwarves consider marriage and career incompatible for women? This leaves a very large population of single male dwarves. Also the dwarves have a constant problem in maintaining their population numbers. Dwarves are said to be very devoted spouses. Only one female dwarf is mentioned in the histories, and she is mentioned only regarding her family relationships.
Tolkien did give some thought to the wives of the Seven original Dwarf Fathers, but he did not come to a version that he liked.
Typical Dwarf lifespan seems to be 240-260 years.
Dwarves speak their own language only among themselves, and do not teach it to outsiders. They learn the languages of other local races, and used those when trading with other races.
Tolkien describes Dwarves as “stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples”. The character flaws which are exploited by the Seven Dwarf Rings of Power are greed and touchy tempers; however, Dwarves turned out to be too independent-minded to be controlled by the Rings. There are some indications that Tolkien did picture Dwarves being resistant to at least some kinds of magic.
Tolkien says nothing about Dwarf society and home life, leaving us to imagine what kind of society would evolve. We presume the women would be a valuable reproductive resource. The men would spend a lot of time in male company, which would probably also be very competitive.
According to Christopher Tolkien, the Hobbit, at the time it was written, wasn't set in Middle Earth. It was just a story for his children, set in a generic fairy-tale world. When the publisher wanted a sequel, Tolkien set the sequel (Lord of the Rings) in his (then-unpublished) Silmarillion universe, which pulled The Hobbit also into Middle-earth.
Lihan Taifun: so, Dwarves: Tolkien Dwarves are roughly 3-4 feet (1.0-1.3 m) tall; “stout and stocky”
AelKennyr Rhiano nods, listening
Lihan Taifun: “short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long.” Even the children have beards
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I was about to ask if this description were for the male and female, but children too?
AelKennyr Rhiano: When do the beards come in?
Lihan Taifun: (I am picturing down like human babies have on their heads when they are born. Tolkien doesn't specify.) “For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike"
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I confess it is hard to picture a dwarf with no beard, at any age.'.. blushes
Lihan Taifun: "nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice"
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Nor clothing?'
Lihan Taifun: at least not the clothing they wear when they are out among other races. Tolkien doesn't say anything about Dwarves at home
AelKennyr Rhiano: No "Better Halls and Dwarves magazines?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'But the male dwarves can tell?'
Lihan Taifun: we suppose. maybe it is pheremones
Rhûn Darkmoon chuckles. 'What of the interests of the men and women? Do they differ?
Lihan Taifun: We know that the women "don't go to war" and only leave their homes under severe circumstances
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Do they learn any of the crafts?'
Lihan Taifun: some do have occupations, yes, since it is said that some don't marry because they are absorbed in their jobs. Which is interesting, since it might imply that marrying and holding a job are incompatible
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'I cannot quite picture dwarven day care for children.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol! Some of the males don't marry because of their jobs?
Lihan Taifun: some don't, because of their jobs. many don't because there aren't enough women to go around. either Tolkien wasn't good at math, or he changed his estimates, but female Dwarves make up 1/4-1/3 of the population
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'With no reason given as to why there were so few compared to males?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Either his math is wrong, or there are a lot of dwarves singing show tunes.
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Lihan Taifun: yeah. no reason given. maybe you should ask Aule about the genetics there
AelKennyr Rhiano: But really, can a species perpetuate in that case?
Lihan Taifun: the Dwarves seem to have a chronic population problem. especially since the birth rates seem to be low
AelKennyr Rhiano looks over at Rhun. "Design flaw?"
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'Perhaps it was a flaw because it was he who made them rather than Eru? Being non-fleshly himself, he may not have thought that through clearly, or even understood the need?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: maybe it was the trade off for the species surviving in the first place?
Lihan Taifun: at least Tolkien did think about the (hypothetical) Seven Dwarf mothers, though he didn't work out a system that he liked, and none of his speculations made it into the published Silmarillion. maybe if he had asked Yavanna's advice, she would have improved that part
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'He does seem to have had an independent streak in him, does he not?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: I mean, perhaps this was Eru's way of making sure that the dwarves never could successfully compete for resources the elves and the humans need
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That would make sense too.'
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien makes a point, in nearly all his drafts, that Eru didn't change the design of the Dwarves, even when he could see some improvements that could be made
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So it was Aule's mistake.' 'Or choice.'
Lihan Taifun: as far as we know, the Seven Dwarf Fathers *were* the prototypes; so Aule didn't practice first
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'Which is unusual in a craftsman surely? But then when he made them did he really have that much experience at being a craftsman?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Measure twice, cut once." Geezz, Aule.
Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Ael, 'Perhaps he was distracted at the time?'
Lihan Taifun: now, the strange part, and maybe why Christopher left the Dwarf Mothers out, is that nearly all Tolkien's attempts at explaining the Dwarf Mothers have 6, rather than 7; and Durin, the first, and the father of the Longbeards, the Dwarves that mostly come into the stories, is the one without a wife
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Yet he is the father of the Longbeards? With no wife?'
Lihan Taifun: right, that part doesn't make sense
AelKennyr Rhiano pictures Aule holding up a screw and saying, "Now, I wonder where that was supposed to go?"
Lihan Taifun: ...not going there, Ael
Rhûn Darkmoon grins and winks at Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: Not going there, either :P
Lihan Taifun: and the seven Dwarves placed geographically distant, so he couldn't have been borrowing someone else's wife
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Rhûn Darkmoon chuckles
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Can I borrow a cup of Sugar and your wife, please?"
Lihan Taifun: anyway, Tolkien did consider the issue of Seven Dwarf Mothers, and didn't come up with a satisfactory story
AelKennyr Rhiano: Why did he have so much trouble, do you think?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Yes, it's an unusual problem, surely for a writer.'
Lihan Taifun: I don't know. It doesn't seem like such a difficult thing to write
AelKennyr Rhiano: I would think the question of the Ainur having spouses would have posed more problems
Lihan Taifun: yes, that is obscure
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Ahh well, what is, is, and in our tolkien world we have fewer dwarf women than men. What else is known about them though?'
Lihan Taifun: Typical lifespan seems to be 240-260 years
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Which is not terribly long compared to some of the other sentient races?
Lihan Taifun: It is longer than original humans. Though the Numenoreans got ahead of them
They have their own language, which outsiders almost never learn.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'What of their temperment, my Lady?'
Lihan Taifun: “stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples”
AelKennyr Rhiano: Stubborn, huh.....looks at Rhun
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Hey, I may be short, but I don't think I have any dwarven ancestry.'.. pokes his tongue out at Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Lihan Taifun: the character flaws which are exploited by Rings of Power are greed and touchy tempers; however, Dwarves turned out to be too independent-minded to be *controlled* by the Rings
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Hehe, see, stubbornness has its good points.'
Lihan Taifun: and Tolkien seems to have been picturing the popular-culture idea that dwarves are resistant to certain kinds of magic, in that he says, at least in early drafts, that Rings of Power would never make dwarves invisible: "they are too solid"
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Why is it that I think that a good thing?'
Lihan Taifun: (he wrote that before his ideas about the Rings solidified, but I think it shows something about how he was picturing Dwarves)
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'So just what was the 'popular culture' about Dwarves at the time he wrote of them?"
Lihan Taifun: and Dwarves are said to be very devoted spouses
AelKennyr Rhiano: maybe that is the problem with the work/marriage thing.
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles and looks at the fair Dwarven lady beside him, 'I can see why.'
Lihan Taifun: obviously Aztryd's husband was an exception, which would explain her family's outrage
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
Lihan Taifun: Ael, I was saying when you arrived how much I love what Cinnamon is doing with Elwing and the dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh yes! isn't that great? I was pulling it up. The way she painted a word picture of Gammy's house.
Lihan Taifun: oh yes, and she is picturing it very similar to how I would
AelKennyr Rhiano: and that whole scene with the husband...well done. I know she wanted to do credit to the rp storyline, and I think she did admirably.
Lihan Taifun: yes, that is great! I was trying to think what kind of society would evolve, when men so seriously outnumber the women, so pretty much everything I wrote about dwarvish society and family life was my own interpolations
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'One would think there would be some seriously companionship among the men, for they would spend a lot of time together?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: and some serious competition.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes. Perhaps frictions too, with their stubbornness and tempers.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Definitely females should either have the upper hand or be very repressed, as they are a valuable resource.
Lihan Taifun: oh, one other factiod -- Tolkien himself says that only one Dwarf women is mentioned by name in the historical accounts
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'wow'
Lihan Taifun: (and she is mentioned in the capacity of her family relations -- why one significant guy is someone else's uncle) so, I am picturing a society where the women are an extremely valuable reproductive resource -- and that is seen as their only value
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Why would it be their only value, my Lady? Especially if some chose not to marry?'
Lihan Taifun: yes, the fact that some don't marry doesn't fit well with that scheme
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'If they were repressed, one would think there would be things like arranged marriages for bride prices etc. Were there such things?'
Lihan Taifun: we have no records. Tolkien tells us almost nothing about Dwarvish family life
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles softly, 'I cannot picture a dwarven lady letting herself be parceled out like that.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: I would think females would be under incredible pressure to marry, and males less encouraged. And perhaps part of the society life may center around a "weeding out of the males."
Lihan Taifun: I can imagine a lot of competition, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: During the Middle Ages, as Lihan no doubt know, the Crusades were an excellent way for removing overpopulation of males.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'As most wars are.'
Lihan Taifun: probably the higher-ranking men would be more likely to marry
Rhûn Darkmoon tilts his head in thought, 'But then that would surely lead to a decrease in lower ranking males. No more blacksmiths to tend the forges while the nobilty all populate?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: In the case of the Middle AGes, actually, the reverse was the desire effect.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'How so?'
Lihan Taifun: only if the higher-ranking ones spend all their time sitting around. If the Master Blacksmith gets to marry, and the apprentices don't , there isn't a problem
AelKennyr Rhiano: You had too many younger sons of the noble houses, and not all of them could inherit. You see, infant mortality was high, so you need to reproduce and have many children to ensure some would survive, but then often too many did.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Of course, I think it was called the primageniture system or something, yes?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes.progeniture?
Lihan Taifun: "primogeniture" -- the firstborn (male) inherits
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes! thanks!
Lihan Taifun: Infant mortality doesn't seem to be a big problem in the Tolkein universe
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles. Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So were the dwarves involved in many wars?'
Lihan Taifun: Dwarves got involved in the wars of the First Age
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Did they war among themselves at all?'
Lihan Taifun: I guess they got dragged into wars against Morgoth and Sauron. otherwise, they don't seem to go in for things large enough to be called "wars"
AelKennyr Rhiano pictures a recruitment sign, "Uncle Thorin Wants You."
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Lihan Taifun: "feuds" maybe
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I was just thinking that.' 'Surely with their tempers and possessiveness they would be bound to occur.'
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: but generally over some specific quarrel
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Were they the hard drinkers they are often pictured as?'
Lihan Taifun: no records
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'So that is more current popular culture than Tolkien say so.'
Lihan Taifun: and perhaps we should mention that Christopher Tolkien claims that the Hobbit, at the time it was written wasn't set in Middle Earth.
AelKennyr Rhiano: It wasn't?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Really?
Lihan Taifun: When the publisher wanted a sequel, and Tolkien wanted to go back to writing the Silmarillion, the sequel was in a time related to his Silmarillion universe, and that retroactively pulled the Hobbit in; but the Hobbit, when it was written, was just a story for his children, written in a generic fairy-tale land. says Christopher
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'And look what it became.'
Lihan Taifun: oh yes, we are very glad the publisher pushed for the sequel!
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Rhûn Darkmoon ponders what he would be if not a Tolkien elf.
Lihan Taifun: and where we would be sitting? and how we would have found each other
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'We have much to be grateful for to Mr Tolkien, methinks.'
Lihan Taifun: definitely!
Rhûn Darkmoon tries to picture no alqualonde and fails utterly
Lihan Taifun: so do we know what we need for RP purposes about dwarves?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I think so? It has certainly brought them more clearly into focus for me.'
Lihan Taifun: that is usually the second part of the discussion, right? How it affects our RP?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'My lady, how do dwarves usually react to being away from their own kind? Do they pine at all?'
Lihan Taifun: I recall Thorin and his father being rather .... unsatisfied with living in exile. there were apparently only a few refugees who survived Smaug's first attack on the mountain. but that wasn't really being separated from their kind.I would expect them to miss their own
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I am just wondering how long Aztryd will be separated from her people and if it will affect her adversely?'
Lihan Taifun: She will miss them
AelKennyr Rhiano: Grimli was separated from his people during LOTR
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'How long for?'
Lihan Taifun: less than a year, six months, maybe
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That would not be too long for a folk who lives so long perhaps?'
Lihan Taifun: I wouldn't think
AelKennyr Rhiano: right
Lihan Taifun: what is very strange was that, in the end, Gimli sailed with Legolas to Aman, where, of course, he would be the only dwarf on the continent; though no one knows whether the Valar let him land
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Adventurebound dwarf!'
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod. I wondered if Legolas had a thing for short males...
Rhûn Darkmoon snorts his coffee and chokes
Lihan Taifun: oh, like no one has ever suggested those two had something going?
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol! no kidding. AelKennyr Rhiano offers to pat Short....Rhun on the back.
Rhûn Darkmoon is still spluttering as he looks from one to the other, 'Really?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Rhûn Darkmoon glares at Ael and mutters darkly
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles innocently. What did Tolkien dwarves think of other races?
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes and wonders if he is the only one who never heard this before
AelKennyr Rhiano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVqbI1skVe8
Lihan Taifun: all those excess dwarf males had to do something
AelKennyr Rhiano: LOL
Lihan Taifun: The dwarves traded with other races; learned and used the languages of the other races
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I.. I just thought they wore it all off by building tunnels?'
Lihan Taifun: maybe Tolkien thought that, too. I don't
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes more, 'What do you think, my Lady.'
Lihan Taifun: I think there would have been a lot of gay dwarves. Probably that was the socially acceptable normal behavior.
AelKennyr Rhiano: And there was probably LOTS of tunnels. too
Lihan Taifun: Like ancient Greece -- women for reproduction and status symbols, and men for emotional attachment and serious conversation
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, not all societies have had the common attitude of our modern one.'
Lihan Taifun: the women I picture as developing their own parallel social structure -- banding together because there are so few
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That is often the way in some societies.'
Lihan Taifun: we can't prove it, of course
AelKennyr Rhiano: We can't disprove it, either
AelKennyr Rhiano: Thank you for telling us about dwarves, Lihan :)
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Indeed. There is so much one hears from popular culture that it was good to hear it from a purely Tolkien perspective.'
Lihan Taifun: do we have a topic for next week?
AelKennyr Rhiano: not yet. What would you two like to discuss next week?
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'I am open to anything, but seeing as we are dealing with races at the moment, why not stick with the short ones and do hobbits?'
Lihan Taifun: we don't have any hobbits now, but we might someday
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'we might'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Can you lead that discussion, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: I could, sure
AelKennyr Rhiano: yay!