Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Shawn Daysleeper
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Lihan Taifun (briefly)
Summary:
In “generic fantasy” roleplay, 'Orc' refers to tough, warlike humanoid creatures. They are usually described as large, misshapen, human like, brutal, and violent. Sometimes, they are described as dull of wit, but in some rps (such as World of Warcraft), they are instead proud warriors with a strong sense of honor. In some games, orcs are allowed to use shamanistic magic.
Tolkien describes Orcs explicitly in one of his Letters: “...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.”
The “goblins” Tolkien describes in The Hobbit are the same creatures he calls “orcs” in Lord of the Rings, or at least a small breed of “orc”. Early editions of Lord of the Rings used “goblin” – or “hobgoblin” for large races – throughout. It was only later that he realized the prefix “hob-” made more sense for a smaller race.
The Uruk-hai, described as very large black orcs of great strength, first appeared from Mordor about the year 2475 of the Third Age, when they briefly took Ithilien and the city of Osgiliath. These original Uruks were of Sauron's breeding, but Saruman bred his own, making further changes, such as resistance to sunlight and more upright stature. All Uruks were larger and stronger than other breeds of orc and consequently looked down upon and often bullied them.
Treebeard suspected Saruman of cross-breeding orcs with humans.
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...do we still want to talk about orcs? Was it orcs tonight?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I believe so?'
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok :) I am going to talk about orcs, both in Tokien, other fantasy settings, and the word itself a little if I may?
Belenos the Bad: that sounds good to me.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I'm with her.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...Let's talk about generic rp descriptions first. As a race in rp, overall... Orc refers to tough, warlike humanoid creatures. They are usually described as large, misshapen, human like, brutual, and violent.
Belenos the Bad: sounds like orcs to me; and some of my ex husbands.. :D
Rhûn Darkmoon chokes
Shawn Daysleeper: totally the opposite of elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: Sometimes, they are described as dull of wit, but in some rps, they are instead proud warriors with a strong sense of honor..pauses to laugh at Belenos.
Belenos the Bad grins and pats Rhun on the back. When AelKennyr Rhiano say 'in some rps'... which rps?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Occasionally they are physically weaker than humans in a rp, but more often stronger, but always they have a robust populations.
I will get to that :)
Belenos the Bad: ok.. *sits meekly and waits*
AelKennyr Rhiano: But, to give you some answer...for example, in WoW they are a proud warrior race.
Belenos the Bad nods.. ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: In games like Warhammer they are green and are called "greenskins." Sometimes, orcs are allowed use of shamanistic magic, but always, they are skilled fighters and fierce enemies.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So not just dumb brutes?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Not just dumb brutes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, I won't bore you with a long discussion of the history of the word "orc." But Tolkien was the one who brought the word into modern use.
Belenos the Bad: ook
AelKennyr Rhiano: In the Hobbit, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" instead of "orc." But he was describing the same type of creature.
Belenos the Bad: why did he change that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, in the Hobbit, the smaller creature was called "goblins" and the larger ones were elsewhere referred to as "orcs."
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think, Belenos, that may be an Lihan question? ....blushes
Belenos the Bad grins.. I'll ask her when I can track her down.. :)
Shawn Daysleeper: Gandalf mentions orcs once in the book when he refered to the Grey Mountains, in the Hobbit
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Shawn Daysleeper: is it a different type of creature there?
AelKennyr Rhiano: In the Hobbit?
Shawn Daysleeper: the creatures in the Grey vs Misty Mountains, two different areas; Lihan question, I bet
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, In the Misty Mountains, they are called goblins
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: They capture the dwarves for trepassing and later fight the men, elves, and dwarves at the Battle of Five Armies. If you remember.
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Belenos the Bad: the different names for similar/same creatures could just be local regional names.. but yes, methinks a lihan question
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think so...
Belenos the Bad: ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: And it may not been a "good" answer. It may be a case of the words being used interchangeably while Tolkien is trying to make up his mind on which to use. We have seen that kind of inconsistency in Tolkien before.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That is true.'
Shawn Daysleeper: ok, I was wondering. Shawn Daysleeper smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: If you remember, in the Hobbit, there is a scene where Gandalf is trying to scare Bilbo. And he warns him of creatures in the wilderness... "goblins, hobogoblins, and orcs of the worst description." So...to try to answer Shawn's question a little.... and going back to what I said earlier, it could simply be that goblins are smaller kin of Orcs. That could be genetic or environmentally related.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'that would make sense.'
Belenos the Bad: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: And sorry, I made tons of notes so I could do a somewhat creditable accounting for tonight....so pardon me for scrambling through them to answer the question. AelKennyr Rhiano shuffles through a moment...oh, oh...yes... going back to Shawn's question...
Shawn Daysleeper blushes; sorry to interrupt
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg...no, no I am just a poor substitute for Lihan :P
Belenos the Bad: You, Ael are never a poor substitute.....*growls at you*
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I'm right with Belenos on that.'
Shawn Daysleeper: Ael is awesome teacher
AelKennyr Rhiano drops his papers and blushes. Tolkien wrote this note which was in some editions of the Hobbit: Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes...Thank you, Shawn..blushes more.
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, I did find where, in the original edition of the Hobbit and early rough drafts of LOTR, goblins was used instead of orcs, period. Hobgoblin was used for larger and more vicious evil goblins. Investigating possible sources for the word "Hobbit" Tolkien realised he had made a mistake in using hob-, which is traditionally used to mean a smaller entity, not a larger one.
Belenos the Bad: so like many writers he was simply making his mind up and redefining some of his characters as his story progressed by the sound of it..
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is my personal take on it, Belenos. And it makes a great deal of sense.
Belenos the Bad: oh yes.. once a book it out there and published you can't rewrite it when you change your mind about something later..
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, that is very true.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right. And Remember the intentions changed between writing the Hobbit and the LOTR.
Belenos the Bad: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Tolkien describes Orcs explicitly in one of his Letters: ...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.
Belenos the Bad: ewww.... nasty visual.. *slides her breakfast to the side for a while*
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Rhûn Darkmoon chuckles, 'Not exactly Miss Universe material.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Now, in Tolkien, there was a great deal of variation in the Orc race.....roflmao...
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: The most obvious examples are the Uruk-hai or Uruks, who were larger, more powerful and had black skin; they called smaller and weaker Orcs snaga ("slave"). And I know you all remember that Sauron bred his own super Orcs... Uruk-hai
Belenos the Bad: bred them... what did he breed them from?
AelKennyr Rhiano looks through his notes...I am not sure.
Belenos the Bad: I know the movies sort of depicted them emerging from the earth in the mine thingy he had going.. but I didn't trust the authenticity of that
AelKennyr Rhiano: well, I don't remember it like that.
Shawn Daysleeper: maybe foul sorcery/chemical mix
AelKennyr Rhiano: The Uruk-hai, described as very large black orcs of great strength, first appeared from Mordor about the year 2475 of the Third Age, when they briefly took Ithilien and the city of Osgiliath. These original Uruks were of Sauron's breeding, but Saruman bred his own, making further changes, such as resistance to sunlight and more upright stature. All Uruks were larger and stronger than other breeds of orc and consequently looked down upon and often bullied them.
Now, in my notes, I do have, and I do remember this...Treebeard suggested that Saruman cross bred Orcs with men. And that is where the Uruk-hai came from, which, all things considered, may well be the case.
Belenos the Bad: again that brings to mind some really nasty visuals.. *shudders*
AelKennyr Rhiano: They were faster, stronger, and larger than normal orcs, and could travel during the day without being weakened, although they still did not like it. Btwm Saruman fed them with human flesh
{Lihan arrives. Greetings.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: um....Do you guys want to make this a two parter? I ask because Shawn and I were supposed to finish the Manwe/Ulmo rp tonight...blushes. I.. am not sure if I really presented this well tonight?
Belenos the Bad smiles.. that will work for me because it means I get to watch it.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'You have, you know. You have done really well with we inquisitive students.'.. smiles
Shawn Daysleeper: Ael you do very well :)
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles. I like inquisitive students. I think I just went a little overboard taking notes...blushes.
Belenos the Bad shakes her head... no.. it just means you have more interesting stuffs to tell us next week.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: Maybe next week, Lihan can talk about Tolkien orcs, and I can talk about orcs in other fantasy rps for comparison?
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'That would be good.'
Belenos the Bad: I agree.... :)
Lihan Taifun: I have houseguests next week. I probably won't be here
AelKennyr Rhiano: oops.that is right...sorry; no, no, I understand.
Belenos the Bad: So we get more of Ael.... gee... I think I can handle that.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Rhûn Darkmoon grins