Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Almara (lamilliara)
Summary:
Playing a villain is not so easy. A character who constantly stomps around, throws temper tantrums, and destroys things “just because” is a spoilt child or a dumb cranky brute, not a powerful villain.
Give the same thought for the backstory and motives of your villain as you would give any other character. “Being bad” is not, in itself, a motive. (It is a philosophical debate whether a person ever does something “because it is bad”.) How did your character come to be “bad”? This helps avoid making your villain a stereotype.
In some situations, the “villain” doesn't have to be an “evil” character, just someone with goals incompatible with the other characters. Who is the “villain” is often a matter of perspective – who is telling the story. (Remember Frodo wondering whether Gollum thought of himself as the hero?) A villain might consider him/herself as a victim, or a misunderstood dreamer.
In some other situations, the “villain” should be chosen as the antithesis of the hero, to give your hero an appropriate challenge.
Be sure to give your villain (like any other character) flaws and weaknesses. All-powerful characters really aren't interesting to roleplay. Flaws, like any other trait, should have reasons, and might evolve over time.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Soo......on that note...villains. Most people think that it is easy being the bad guy, but is it really?
Belenos: I don't think it is..
AelKennyr Rhiano: Belenos, please, share you thoughts on what it is to play a villain?
Shawn Daysleeper: I think it requires you to know a lot about your character, abilities and how he fits in the story
AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement with Shawn.
Shawn Daysleeper: so not easy
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think so, too.
Lihan Taifun: I agree
Belenos: well, a lot of people think being bad is like a being like a spoilt child having a temper tantrum.. they can do anything for no particular reason.. stomp around and throw hissy fits as the mood takes them... and none of them ever seem to view their character as having flaws other than greed, temper etc.. no real weaknesses
Lihan Taifun: also, someone throwing constant temper tantrums won't even be a powerful villain
Belenos: not at all. just a dumb cranky brute
Lihan Taifun: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Quite correct. To be a successful villain takes a lot of self control and restraint.
Lihan Taifun: of course, "hot temper" could be your villain's weakness, but that should be a deliberate choice
AelKennyr Rhiano: and deliberately played.
Lihan Taifun: deliberately played, yes
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'It has been interesting watching Belenos introduce a new villain into our role play from scratch. You can see the thought she put into him and his character and backstory, as well as his potential development.'
Belenos nods.. yes.. I've put hooks there so that he can either be wooed to the good side.. or become even more disillusioned and go badder still.
Lihan Taifun: also, people sometimes think (maybe from D&D) that "evil" is a motivation, which it isn't
AelKennyr Rhiano: Please, expound on that? "evil is not a motivation?"
Lihan Taifun: I don't think anyone ever did something just because it was "bad". they do bad things because of whatever their motives are, and those things are "bad" because they are thinking only of themself, or some such
AelKennyr Rhiano: That is an excellent way to think about it.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So like the balrog did the 'bad' thing of the attack because of the geas on him.'
Lihan Taifun: and the balrog gets some entertainment out of chasing what he considers inferior beings
AelKennyr Rhiano: People can do things just because they are bad, but usually that shows a level of great immaturity. Like the bully who takes a bat and goes and breaks the windows of an abandoned house. There is no higher motivation than to be bad, but is that child really a villain, per se? And it that a standard choice for them?
Belenos: so in a way it's not just the action ... but the person themselves?
Lihan Taifun: is not that bully trying to express his independence from the rules?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Good question, and yes, I think you can make that case.
Belenos: the child with the bat performs a bad action.. but that doesn't make him a villain.. unless it's persistant and part of his character?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods again.
Lihan Taifun: right, what Belanos said
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I have to agree.'
Belenos: and very few seem to look at the reasons WHY they are a villain
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES, Belenos!
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think the problem is that most rpers don't have a good working definition of what a villain is. They equate a villain with traits that show bad behavior, and that is not the same thing.
Lihan Taifun: for the purposes of the roleplay, would an honorable opponent with irreconcilable differences serve the same plot purpose?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Please explain, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: the function of a villain in the RP is to create conflicts to drive the plot, yes?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It can be. You have to have balance. You will have heroes. Heroes cannot exist without a counterpart.
Lihan Taifun: so, would, say the leader of an opposing realm, who for some reason cannot be a peace with you, serve that same purpose?
AelKennyr Rhiano: It can, yes!
Belenos: but again, that tends to just produce a villain for the sake of having a villain.. that's one 'why' of why they are a villain... but....
AelKennyr Rhiano: Most people see villains in rp without redeemable qualities, and that is creating a "stock character" more than a true villain.
Belenos: there is also the why they ARE a villain.. what brought them to be bad, to behave bad.. that's one of the things I find missing a lot in role play villains
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes!
Lihan Taifun: yes, exactly, Belanos
AelKennyr Rhiano: We see tons of rps with stock bad guys. They are stereotypes.
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Big bad wolves.''Full of huff and puff and not much more.'
{Almara arrives. Greetings.}
Lihan Taifun: and that relates to where I was going -- the villain doesn't even have to be "bad" , just have incompatible goals with yours
AelKennyr Rhiano: And yes, Rhun and Lihan.
Lihan Taifun: but that gets to what Belanos was saying, the villain has motives and goals
AelKennyr Rhiano: and there is something else a lot of people do not think about... who are the heroes in the story? You want to strive to make your villain the antithesis of your hero. Else, why have them?
Belenos: yes..
AelKennyr Rhiano: so...it is a little more than having incompatible neighbors, for example.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'It's not just that they don't see eye to eye.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, let's consider that... It could begin that way, but what if that were all it was.
Belenos: well see I think the thing you have to watch is this... Belenos: while we don't want our villains becoming stereotypical big bad wolf types... neither do we want our heros doing the same, becoming sweet angels who never put a foot wrong
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly. Belenos grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: Take the current rp... Olwe could have found a sword, drawn it, and tried to take on the dragon and balrog. Which would have been Incredibly STUPID. and very two dimensional. Instead he drops to his knees and prays to Ulmo to save Alqualonde.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Thinks outside of king kong mentality.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod And going back to something Belenos pointed out earlier... Make your villain three dimensional. Give the villain a back story or tell a part of the story from his point of view. Give a clear picture of your villain, the nature of his evilness. Why is he evil? How is he? Does he pluck wings off the fae?
Shawn Daysleeper: villains should be as good as the heros to have a balanced story
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes.
Lihan Taifun: "as good"? in what way?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'A good villain, meaning one well played and well thought out.'
Shawn Daysleeper: the back story, and ya well thought out. sorry was not clear
AelKennyr Rhiano: Good question. May I share a tip on what some rpers do when creating their villain?
Belenos: yes please
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Please do.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: They make a list of the hero or hero's qualities. The hero they will be struggling again. They look at the characteristics and qualities. Now you have to be careful not to godmodd or metagame. This is not information you necessary rp. But they then look at the qualities and charactistics and ask themselves, "What qualities would a character need to have to be in conflict with this hero? What do I need to stand out as opposition to the hero? they also make a list of the goals of the hero as they see it revealed in the rp. Then, when you understand the hero, you can understand your motive in the rp better. And you need motive to be either a hero or a villain. Heroes and villains, they are two sides of a coin. You know what truly makes a character one or the other? Perspective.
Belenos: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: and motive.
Lihan Taifun: who is telling the story
Belenos: because from say Morgoth's perspective the balrog and dragon would be heroes
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod absolutely. And we know the victors always tell the story. Their way.
Lihan Taifun: remember Frodo wondering whether Gollum thought that he was a hero?
AelKennyr Rhiano: precisely. And motive is very important. If you don't have motives, then no one will find you a very believable and engaging villain. Motives drive one's actions. And a motive can be anything to a past event in their life to complete world domination.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, "Exactly.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Lihan, you played the Balrog, a being of incredible power and abilities. What was it like to play him? What things did you have to consider?
Lihan Taifun: a being of incredible power, but here he was faced with an insurmountable obstacle -- he's not a strong flier and he's deathly allergic to oceans, so his limitations drove his decision to team up with a dragon, which would not be his first choice. and having those limitations made for a MUCH more interesting set of events
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, you did wonderfully :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: Lihan brings up a great point. HAVE FLAWS!
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Yes.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: Have limitations, have weaknesses...Gods, you have have moments where you briefly consider being...idk...GASP...good. but have flaws.
Lihan Taifun: out of mercy for Leo, I didn't let the balrog get motion sickness
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol...heh heh
Lihan Taifun: but he doesn't really enjoy flying on dragonback
AelKennyr Rhiano: No reason why he would enjoy it. And it could not have been pleasant for the dragon.
Belenos: hehe.. his scales itched
AelKennyr Rhiano: And don't be obvious. Don't walk into the local tavern and go, "Hi, I am Bob the Orc. I am a villiain."
Belenos: Unless one is an egomaniac role play would become boring pretty quickly if one was all powerful all knowing and all potent... what would be the point.. you'd always win
Lihan Taifun: this would not have been a very interesting scene if the balrog just showed up in Alqualonde and said, "I'm going to eat everyone"
Belenos: I think the balrog had fleas.. or scale mites
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Lihan Taifun: not the balrog's fault if you are allergic to brimstone
AelKennyr Rhiano: ROFL
AelKennyr Rhiano: May I ask our guest if she has or is playing a villain? Maybe she is afk?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, "It would seem so.'
Almara: Sorry, I was making a snack.
AelKennyr Rhiano: wb :)
Almara: I'm mostly here to listen, so I'm sorry for not offering my own thoughts. However, in regard to your question, I have played a villain once in the past, but that was for a very short time as the people I was doing it for fell apart.
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, ok :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: Outline possible character flaws the villain will adopt. A list of character flaws includes jealousy, unreasonable ideas, unattainable goals or other exaggerated characteristics. To make the character believable in the rp, make the flaws easy to hide or not immediately noticeable so the hero will not immediately identify the villain.
But there is a flip side to that, too.
Belenos: see again though...
AelKennyr Rhiano listens.
Belenos: you have to watch that... unreasonable ideas?... from whose perspective?... I'd think it more a case of giving your character different ideas which are likely to clash with those of the 'good' charcters.. but give them a reason for having those ideas...
Lihan Taifun: well, I'm thinking like how Sauron can't imagine anyone wanting to destroy his pretty Ring
Belenos: like with Suraumo... he has the view that most other beings are users.. and with good reason, from his life experiences.. so he resents them and considers their lives of no account... so in some ways his ideas are noble... but those noble ideas actually lead him to clash with other beings
AelKennyr Rhiano: Lihan and Belenos, you make very good points.
Lihan Taifun: Suraumo isn't wrong about the balrog, either. He IS using the dragon.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Your flaws should be chosen with care, and again, it does go back to perspective.
Belenos: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: So, you, again, need to look at who your heroes are, what your motivation is, what is your backstory?
Belenos: and the thing with flaws is this... are they static and do they limit the growth of your character?
AelKennyr Rhiano: YES! perfect point.
Belenos: do they just perpetually hate elves because one beat them with a stick when they were little? or like with Suraumo, his 'noble' thoughts could lead him either way, depending on what he experiences from here on with the story
AelKennyr Rhiano: Which leads to another point to take into consideration... Your backstory.
Rhûn Darkmoon listens with interest
AelKennyr Rhiano: Create a backstory where the villain has a chance to portray his or her villainy. If, for example, your villain actually was once a good guy, then you need an event to occur that explains that change.
Belenos: yes...like with life there has to be a reason
AelKennyr Rhiano: And make sure that that event can explain the villain's motivation, not matter how strange or morally incorrect. This is character development and is as important for the villain as it is for the hero.
Lihan Taifun: yes, the villians also need motives
Belenos: yes..
AelKennyr Rhiano: One last consideration... the villain's actions.
Almara: On the topic of motives, I've seen one used that irritates me greatly. The "because I'm evil and what I do is for the idea of evil" motive.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement.
Lihan Taifun: yes! that isn't really a "motive" at all
AelKennyr Rhiano: exactly.
Almara: I'm sorry that I was late on that, but I've seen it used in stories and in RP, and it really degenerates a character.
AelKennyr Rhiano: If you think, very few villains say to themselves, " I am evil. Motives, I don't need no stinking motives."
Lihan Taifun grins
Belenos: in truth few even see themselves as 'bad'
Shawn Daysleeper: developed villains need motives and ya they do not see themselves as evil
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'They just see themselves as who they are and often think of themselves as the victims, not others.'
Lihan Taifun: very true
AelKennyr Rhiano: or even a hero, in their eyes
Belenos: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods
Almara: I'd think there are other motives for someone to be a villain. Perhaps, that they have a dream and their actions are done to advance that dream. They don't have to see themselves as a victim.
AelKennyr Rhiano: I agree. would you all like to continue this discussion next week?
Shawn Daysleeper: thank you I enjoyed this discussion
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'oh yes, there are a whole plethora of reasons for one to be a villain, but i mentioned feeling the victim because others often feel victims of the villain's actions.'
Belenos: yes.. it would be good to continue it i think
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I agree.'
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles.
Almara tilts her head to the side. "If I happen to remember about this conversation I would be interested in listening to other ideas."
Lihan Taifun: sure, I don't think we have exhausted this yet
AelKennyr Rhiano: We can do that :)