Present:
Almara (lamilliara)
Carleen Luckstone
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Shawn Daysleeper
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone)
Rajani Milton
Summary:
Villains need motives, just like everyone else. “Being evil” is not a motive – neither a realistic or an interesting motive. A character “being bad for the sake of being bad” comes across like a spoilt child, and give the other players very little to interact with. If your character is angry, why? Is that one event in the past really enough to be a driving force years later?
Think beyond the cliché villain. If you do use “the jealous ex-husband, jilted mistress, or guy made fun of in high school back for revenge” at least give them a unique backstory so they have some dimension. We consider Leo's balrog as an example of “not your typical dumb brute balrog.”
Realistic and interesting bad guys have weaknesses, flaws, and soft spots. They are seldom “bad” through and through. We consider Aulë under the influence of the chamber as an example of a “partly bad” character. “Every villain was once someone's baby...er...hatchling...um...something little and cute...cuteish”. A villain doesn't spend every waking hour “being bad”.
A villain probably doesn't think of him/herself as being “bad”. It is a matter of perspective, who is telling the story. Súraumo is just looking out for his own interests.
Meanwhile, don't make the villain's weaknesses and flaws immediately obvious. Let the heros find out that information gradually, in the course of the plot development. Unless you deliberately want a “bungling” bad guy, the villain should be intelligent. What fun is it if the hero can always predict what the arch-villain is going to do?
A villain shouldn't give up and “become good” — not without a plausible, life-changing reason. Even then, it isn't likely to be a sudden, complete change.
Like any other character, give the villain some distinctive mannerisms. What style of speaking does your character use? (Remember Yoda?) Villains don't have to dress in black leather. They don't have to be ugly. They don't have to be rude and abusive. A sweet-talking manipulator could be much scarier.
If your character has inflated ideas about his/her own abilities, be very aware of the distinction between what your character says (opinion, perhaps inaccurate) and what the narrator says (intended to be fact). There is a big difference between a character saying “We are unbeatable!” and the narrator saying “They are unbeatable.”
If you are playing a bad guy, take extra care to be polite, out-of-character, to the other roleplayers. Playing a villain is never an excuse to be rude out-of-character.
“A good villain cannot rescue a bad story. A bad story cannot support a good villain.”
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...well...let's get started? Talking about bad guys again :) Where should we start tonight?
Almara: I beleive we left off with motives for being "evil"
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, we did :) lol I believe we had decided that "Being evil" was seldom a motive for a true villain, yes?
Almara: Not any one worth being too interested in, unless it's far more complex than such a simple motive.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Right.
Lihan Taifun: villians would have the same motives as anyone else. Just expressed in less socially acceptible actions
AelKennyr Rhiano: True. You want other rpers to react to your villain. It is hard to "react" when your rp character is just being bad to be bad. That is more the characteristic of a willful child.
Belenos: and really.. I would imagine it would get boring to RP in time too
AelKennyr Rhiano: You want a powerful rp character, and that is where a lot of rpers get into trouble because they see power in a rather limited scope. So many times rpers fall into the trap of playing a cliché. Many times we see the jealous ex-husband, jilted mistress, or guy made fun of in high school back for revenge. If you are going to do this, make them stand out by being different. Give them a life of their own so they don't become one-dimensional.
Belenos: that makes sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: Take the balrog...Leo in our rp decided to make the Balrog intelligent, cunning, a being who remembers his past.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'He did.'
Lihan Taifun: Leo's balrog is a character with depth
AelKennyr Rhiano: But he is by no means a "fallen angel." We have seen no hint of redemption or guilt from him.
Belenos: no.. not at all
AelKennyr Rhiano: Rhun, tell us about Aule. You could have made him a simple bad guy with no redeeming qualities, but you didn't. Please tell us why not? Althought under the influence of dark magicks, he could have become just a bad guy.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Because if he had no redeeming qualities I'd be role playing myself into a corner. If he became just bad through and through, what future would he have in the story? Not only that, but bad guys rarely ever are bad through and through. They always have their soft sides or not so bad features. It's more realistic.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: the best rpers at being villains suggest that you try not to make your villain TOO evil.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Twist the character's personality and create a little sympathy or at least empathy.
Rhûn Darkmoon: "Well, why should they be? After all, are all the good guys angels? In life, is anyone a perfect angel? So why should a villain be overly evil? After all villainy is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, Rhun. If your villain goes around causing terror to everything that crosses his path, then he will become boring to play and the rp story will lose its appeal, or becoming rather flat.
Belenos: yes.. it would be ho hum, more doom and destruction.. move on the next bit
AelKennyr Rhiano: Every villain was once someone's baby...er...hatchling...um...something little and cute...cuteish
Belenos: LOL
Rhûn Darkmoon grins and pictures a baby Aule, 'Did you say cute?'
Almara: I have a hard time believing a Balrog was ever cute...
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok...maybe not EVERY one.
Belenos: oh i don't know.. a cute little fluffy fireball? Belenos <--- is a dragoness and thinks little fireballs are cute
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol!
Lihan Taifun: he was once a pure spirit -- though that was a veyr long time ago
Belenos grins.. are we talking balrog or Aule?.. :P
Rhûn Darkmoon pokes his tongue out at Belenos
AelKennyr Rhiano: Keep your villain strong until the end. Too many times we see stories that end with the villain giving up and wanting to change his or her ways. A powerful villain never gives up and will fight to the finish.
Another thing...if your villain is an angry character...like the dragon in the attack...give them a reaons to be angry. And make the reason plausible.
Belenos grins.. toothache and a hungry dragon works.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: If Aule was stood up at the Ainur prom in the First Age, that is not necessarily a very creditable reason for stalking the Vala who turned him down in the 4th Age.
Belenos grins... no.. it's not ..
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Who would stand up such a handsome and debonair Ainu?'
AelKennyr Rhiano coughs and chokes a little.
Rhûn Darkmoon grins some more
AelKennyr Rhiano: Make your villain intelligent, unless the situation calls for a bungling villain. And know the motivation for why your villain has the personality he or she does.
Belenos: after all, if you haven't figured it out and don't really understand it.. how can you play it well?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly. But nothing is more boring that an arch villain who is, quite frankly, stupid. One whose every move is predicted by the hero is very boring.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods a lot
Lihan Taifun: There are jokes about the predictable stupid mistakes stereotypical villians make
{Rajani arrives. Greetings.}
{Shawn leaves. Farewells.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: Any questions or comments so far?
Belenos: no.. it all makes sense to me..
AelKennyr Rhiano: A thing that a lot of rpers overlook, too, is physical characteristics.
Belenos nods.. yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: Adding physical details is very important. Not only the way the character looks but the mannerisms and idiosyncrasies that reflect the emotional and mental state of the rp character. That adds to the believability.
Rajani Milton: nod nod
Belenos: like Aule and his frown?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Belenos...the dragon's bad teeth is an example..yes, Aule's scowl
Almara: Or you could just focus on one characteristic and include that in every single post. </sarcasm>
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, you could if that characteristic has a purpose and you were subtle enough.
Belenos: and the way he kept rubbing at his forehead when he was away from the chamber
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, like that, Belenos.
Rajani Milton: it doesn't have to be all black leather and metal studs :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: for the quest coming up, in the little rp stories I release, there are two characters, the thieves who stole the seal.
AelKennyr Rhiano: how would you guys describe them?
Belenos: inept and bumbling with a dash of cunning and more than a little greed?
Lihan Taifun: and no loyalty to each other
AelKennyr Rhiano: they were smart enough to steal it, yes. absolutely NO loyality.
Lihan Taifun: off a table, I think it was
AelKennyr Rhiano: pretty stereotypical in alot of ways. but each one was unique from the other. And they are meant to be somewhat comic.
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'and they are.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is something a lot of people forget...No one is 100% consistent. A bad guy will not be cooking up ways to be bad every waking moment.
Rajani Milton: :D
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'He has to eat sometime.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: He will get hungry. He will get sleepy. He will get thirsty. He may plot the destruction of an entire village but love baby kittens.
Rajani Milton: He may not even see himself as evil
AelKennyr Rhiano: Probably not.
Belenos: I know Suraumo does not. he just sees himself as trying to survive and look out for himself
AelKennyr Rhiano: After all Lucifer never considered himself a "fallen angel." God did.
Rajani Milton: most people don't
AelKennyr Rhiano: Villainy is in the eye of the beholder. And victors write histories. Seldom do the losers.
Rajani Milton: nodnod
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That is very true.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: you don't have to make your villain ugly to convey the inner ugliness of the character. You could have a beautiful villain with a single scar on her wrist for example.
Belenos smiles.. yes..
AelKennyr Rhiano: You don't have to be obvious with physical deformities.
Rajani Milton: if she has a scar, probably there is a story behind it
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Almara: You could go even further and say that the scar was always kept covered by a glove or something similar.
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Rajani Milton: although I am sure there are villains who just fell off a front porch when they were twelve, but have spun the story to sound scary
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Belenos: LOL Rajani
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Rajani Milton: it was really an epic battle! with zombies and Luke Skywalker! I swear!
AelKennyr Rhiano: Actually, that is brilliant. lol!
Rajani Milton: street cred, you know
AelKennyr Rhiano: there is another aspect we have not discussed. Your character's "voice" in the rp. His manner of speaking. Most people equate giving your rp character a cockney accent as the height of giving your character a unique voice.
Almara: Well since Raj brought up Star Wars, I feel compelled to mention Yoda as an example, though his alignment is on the other side of things.
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes. perfect example.
Belenos: LOL.. like those goblins or orcs or whatever they were in the LOTR movies..
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod Perhaps your villain is very precise in his language. Perhaps he like to gloat and is wordy...gods help us. Perhaps he stutters. Perhaps the language. incorporate his trait into his speech.
HOWEVER, there is a pitfall... let's say your character is arrogant, haughty with a belief in his own superiority. You have to be careful to keep that tone in his dialogue, not in any narrative. When you describe the character's feelings or thoughts, show it there. But don't make statements like : The drow are superior. They are unbeatable, unstoppable. Not unless you are making it cleat that is from your character's perspective.
Rajani Milton: nodnod
AelKennyr Rhiano: Please, comments, thoughts, questions?
Rajani Milton: You can have hir argue with people. sometimes people's opinions show up best in contrast. like, he might sound reasonable, if harsh, until you get him talking to someone a little more compassionate
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Belenos: if it were something like the drow being mostly superior. it could be a comment about the pleasure the character takes each time their strength is proven again over a foe...
Rajani Milton: that can give you context for what else is going on in the world, too...what opinions are common and pass without notice
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, it could.
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'If one makes sweeping statements like a person or race being unbeatable or unstoppable it actually undermines the credibility of the story I think.'
Rajani Milton: you definitely have to support it
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'If one WERE unbeatable or unstoppable, then why are they not the ruler of the world?'
Rajani Milton: yeah
AelKennyr Rhiano: it undermines the rper as well. And over time, people won't want to rp with that person.
Rajani Milton: Only the Sith deal in absolutes ;)
Lihan Taifun: unless you are portraying that your character is a bit delusional
Rajani Milton: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: and you can do that, Lihan. And it would be very effective :)
Rajani Milton: a lot of the effective villains aren't crazy (not contradicting you, agreeing with you)
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I think a really good baddie should actually be shrewd enough to see the strengths in his opponents, because it is those strengths he has to overcome.'
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is something else, I should mention.
Belenos listens with interest
AelKennyr Rhiano: You do not have to be insulting, verbally abusive, degrading to others rpers to be a villain.
Belenos <-- thinks Ael has brought up some very good points today
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is no excuse for badgering, belittling, or harassing folks. If you do it, do it IN the rp,. Make it clear that it is the rp, make it consistent in the rp.
Almara: The truly fearsome villains in my opinion are the ones that are able to sweet talk people onto their side.
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: yes, the sweet-talking ones are the most dangerous!
Belenos grins.. oh yes.. it's the charming sweet talkers, the charismatic leaders, who are often the most dangerous
Belenos grins.. snap
AelKennyr Rhiano: there is one last consideration. The villain...the quality of the villain depends alot upon the dedication of the rper to the character. But it also depends upon the rper's dedication to the story and upon the quality of the story.
Rajani Milton: nodnod
AelKennyr Rhiano: A good villain cannot rescue a bad story. A bad story cannot support a good villain. Any other comments, questions, thoughts?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I would think that a good story cannot long support a bad villain either. For the bad villain would weaken the good story.'
Carleen Luckstone shakes her head
AelKennyr Rhiano: Very true! Good point!
Lihan Taifun: whereas a good villain will strengthen a good story
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Belenos: yes.. it would
Lihan Taifun: give the other characters something to do, the other characters can't sit around sipping punch all year, they need a challenge
Belenos: lol.... I like how you and aule have played his villainy.... it's not the usual doom and destruction, rape and pillage type of villainy...
Rajani Milton: hee yes!
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'I.. I don't think I could have played it that way at all.'
Lihan Taifun sniffs. I'd have had something to say about that
Rajani Milton: my other thought here is that if your character is a terrible, terrible person, you should take care to be especially pleasant to the people you play with
Rajani Milton: for example, I think Rhun and Belenos have that down really well :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: as a rp leader and a sim owner, nothing turns me off more than a rper who ims me and tell me "I am bored. Such-and-such rp sucks. I have played villains in 8 rps this year. I don't care what the story is. I just want to play my Queen of the Vampires, Victorian alternate universe rp on your sim. Give me a spot and 500 prims."
Rajani Milton: ahaha that's a strange mindset, to me
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg...me, too.
Rajani Milton: wanting to do that
AelKennyr Rhiano: I have had rpers im me :"Your sim is empty. I went there to rp my story."
"Oh...shame that...move along."
Almara: I absolutely hate people that tell me they are bored, as if they expect that it is my job to entertain them.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes!
Almara whispers: "I'm bored." "Okay, what do you want me to do about it?" "I'unno, something?" "Alright, would you like me to sit beside you and tell you a bedtime story?"
Belenos grins
Lihan Taifun: heh heh, I've been a mommy
Belenos: I tell them that if they want a home entertainment unit to go down to the hifi store and buy one for themselves..
AelKennyr Rhiano: A last note...there are a lot of rpers who have no respect for the effort it takes to maintain a sim. There is no little effort, and money invested, and I have heard a lot of rpers on group chats be downright rude and demanding as to what they expect.
AelKennyr Rhiano: I am always sure I never invite them here. I noticed the other good places to rp do not either.
Rajani Milton: nod nod
Almara: Being an owner, admin, or leader of anything online is one of the most thankless tasks one can possibly undertake with their lives.
AelKennyr Rhiano: rpers are fickle.
Belenos: oh yes.. not just to sim owners.. but to RP group owners too.. demanding their established RP fit with the newcomer.. and calling them rude and exclusive if they refuse to change their successful, established storylines to fit newcomers who have clearly failed at their RP on multiple sims
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh yeah, I have had that. I have had people show up, announce they will be glad to be our arch villain. "Hello, do I KNOW you?"
Belenos nods nods nods.. like they are bestowing the ultimate blessing upon us by their offer
Carleen Luckstone: I beg your pardon. We seem to be finished with the main discussion, and it is late. I must be going now. Safe paths, all